Naturaly UN-Talented Singers..

[6FM]

Hope this is posted in the right spot..

Some people can sing right out of the gate. My girl is one of them. She has a tone that is just pleasing to the ear. When she does a little work on almost any song she is key.. its just natural.

Then there is me...

I'm 6'5 and have a low voice, I have been told I should talk on the radio. But when I started singing it was laughable. I have worked very hard to just be able to be in key or close.

My singing voice isn't far from my talking one. It took years of practice to just be able to not sound ridiculous and to be able to sing to friends at fires and parties and to be able to busk. I keep working at it but wonder if I will ever be able to cross that bridge from passable to good.

Guitar I can just keep playing and improve. I hit those weeks where I just play 8-10-12 hours a day and I can just enjoy the feeling of improvement. Singing has seemed to just stay stagnant .

Has anyone had this expirinance? What did you do?

[tonyo]

I'm curious how much of your 8+ hours a day playing guitar is also spent singing. I never expected to sing, only to play, found myself singing along accidentally in the chorus of the first song I learned when my wife was singing it along to my playing for maybe the 50th time.

Then I started singing to everything I played. The more time goes on, the better my singing gets. So, if you aren't singing much, I'd encourage you to sing more. I now even sing when I'm on my daily walk around the neighbourhood. Took a while to get the courage to do that.

[6FM]

Originally Posted by tonyo

I'm curious how much of your 8+ hours a day playing guitar is also spent singing. I never expected to sing, only to play, found myself singing along accidentally in the chorus of the first song I learned when my wife was singing it along to my playing for maybe the 50th time.

Then I started singing to everything I played. The more time goes on, the better my singing gets. So, if you aren't singing much, I'd encourage you to sing more. I now even sing when I'm on my daily walk around the neighbourhood. Took a while to get the courage to do that.

Point well taken.

I would say I sing one song for every 5-10 I play. The hard part is that when I am singing I have a hard time judging objectively how I sound. What I hear when I play a recoding of myself is not what I hear when I'm singing. It makes it hard to make changes on the fly. I can hear when I'm off on the guitar as soon as I hit the string.

[stanron]

If you are concerned about singing on pitch you could practice singing on pitch before you practice singing songs.

Use a guitar tuner that has a microphone. Play a note on your guitar, check it is in tune then sing that note and check it is in tune. Start with the lowest note on your guitar and go as high as you can. Try with different vowel sounds and start with singing long single notes. If what you sing and what you hear match what the tuner indicates then practice singing intervals without sliding to the notes. If what you sing and what you hear does not match what the tuner indicates then you have some problems to solve before doing more than practicing single notes

You might decide to accompany a good singer rather than sing yourself..

[Laughingboy68]

Can you sing in tune when you sing with the radio? If you can, you can probably hold pitch. I often find that people who aren't confident about their singing get so nervous when they open their mouths that they tighten and sing sharp or flat. Relax, pick a recording of something simple to play that has lyrics and a melody that you know really well. Listen to it over and over, singing along with the recording. Once it's a song that you know in detail, play it slowly. Get confident before you record the result. Listen back and make adjustments. Sing for the joy of it. Rinse and repeat. Usually, it will come eventually, but don't be overly critical of yourself. That only breeds nervousness and tension which makes it really hard to sing.

I have an absolutely tone deaf Mom who loves music. She always told me that I had a beautiful voice (I didn't then and I still don't now). I was always encouraged to sing and after almost 50 years I can fool most of the room, most of the time. Get to know your voice, transpose songs to be in comfortable keys, and play to your strengths (sounds like songs by Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings or Tennessee Ernie Ford would be good choices if you have a low register, "radio" voice). If you can sing quite low, it can be a really impressive sound.

Most of all have fun and relax - music is not about competition, it's about communion.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by 6FM

The hard part is that when I am singing I have a hard time judging objectively how I sound. What I hear when I play a recoding of myself is not what I hear when I'm singing.

Two ways of hearing yourself the way you really sound, as you're singing:
1. Use a mic and headphones.
2. Sing into the corner of a room, as close as you can get. (singing facing a flat wall also works, but the corner focuses your voice better, directs it straight back at your ears.)

As you're (presumably) a natural bass, exploit that and don't try and exceed your range, and don't try and sound like anyone else. Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits are your reference points - not that you should sound like them, but they don't sound like anyone else or each other (although they are both basses), but still sound great.

Your only problem is you started late (like me). Learning anything late in life is hard, but it's not impossible - it just takes longer, and maybe takes more commitment and effort.

IMO, we're all born with the same equipment (musical potential, vocal and aural). Some just get lucky as kids, and manage to retain and exploit what they're (we're) born with. The rest of us miss the boat, the potential goes rusty. The longer you leave it, the rustier it gets. Generally, if you're not singing by the time you're a teenager, you're going to find it difficult to learn later in life. Same with learning a musical instrument: learn as a kid, it's natural and easy (a fun game like any other).
The problem with the voice is it feels really personal - it's you. With an instrument, it's more objective, there are clear techniques, instructions you can follow, the reasons for mistakes are usually obvious, easily fixed. With singing, it's more embarrassing when you can't do it, so you quickly stop trying - you think you just don't have the equipment. You do, you just have to scrape off the rust and grease it up... and accept that it's going to creak and clank for a while...

[KarlK]

I think a person can learn to sing, but we all have to admit one thing:

To be a great singer, you must be gifted. Zeus, or some deity or other, whipped out the magic wand, and tapped you on the throat and said, "the gift is yours."

Stevie Winwood
Layne Staley
Robert Plant
Ryan Adams
Annie Lennox
Christine Aguilera
Jackie Wilson
Freddie Mercury
Aretha

Among many many others.

[Johnny.guitar]

Originally Posted by KarlK

I think a person can learn to sing, but we all have to admit one thing:

To be a great singer, you must be gifted. Zeus, or some deity or other, whipped out the magic wand, and tapped you on the throat and said, "the gift is yours."

Stevie Winwood
Layne Staley
Robert Plant
Ryan Adams
Annie Lennox
Christine Aguilera
Jackie Wilson
Freddie Mercury
Aretha

Among many many others.

All incredible singers for sure.
But I would love to know how their younger years were spent, I would guess there was a lot of practice, coaching and hard work to get to the level they achieved.

[Johnny.guitar]

I read at some point about KD Lang and what she does to maintain her voice. Strict diet, 8hrs sleep or more. Daily vocal regime...In other words very disciplined.
I think almost anyone can become a good singer but to be great it takes sacrifices that most aren't willing or able to take.

[HOF dad]

The problem with the voice is it feels really personal - it's you. With an instrument, it's more objective, there are clear techniques, instructions you can follow, the reasons for mistakes are usually obvious, easily fixed. With singing, it's more embarrassing when you can't do it, so you quickly stop trying - you think you just don't have the equipment. You do, you just have to scrape off the rust and grease it up... and accept that it's going to creak and clank for a while... [/QUOTE]

What a great point! I think that may pinpoint the issue even better than I have been able to dissect it. I'm in a similar situation with a deeper voice that's not necessarily gifted but i love to sing. You're exactly right though, a vocal mistake seems much more personal than a playing error.
Great insight.


Dan

[ohiopicker]

To the O/P: sing in the car on the way to and from work (provided you don't car pool), and sing scales to determine where your vocal range lies. Also, try to sing relatively loud. Don't sing from the throat, sing from the diaphragm. Good luck. With practice, I am sure you will find your voice.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by 6FM

...Some people can sing right out of the gate. My girl is one of them. She has a tone that is just pleasing to the ear. When she does a little work on almost any song she is key...it's just natural.

Then there is me...

I'm 6'5" and have a low voice...

Hey, it worked for Johnny Cash and June Carter...

[Golffishny]

When I hear someone say that someone is a natural at anything I think that they have no idea how much time and effort has gone into being "natural." One thing you can do is sing the scales as you play them on your guitar. This will help you focus on the tone and help you learn your range. Sing as often as you can. I sing while I'm mowing the lawn. Also a friend of mine who is less than stellar took a few lessons from a voice coach. It helped a lot. Keep it fun. Play and sing songs that lift your mood, you tend to project better when you're having fun. Good luck.

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by Johnny.guitar

All incredible singers for sure.
But I would love to know how their younger years were spent, I would guess there was a lot of practice, coaching and hard work to get to the level they achieved.

Well, practice indeed does make perfect, and discipline with talent can take you far.

But then there's "the gift."

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by KarlK

I think a person can learn to sing, but we all have to admit one thing:

To be a great singer, you must be gifted.

I don't admit that at all. It looks like that, for sure but - like Golffisshny says - you never see what they've been through to get to that point.

The other view is that we are ALL born with musical potential - because all humans appreciate and value music - but for most of us (in our culture at least), musical skill is not considered essential, so it's not promoted.

Research shows that early musical experience produces apparently "gifted" kids later on. Infant brains are hardwired to learn language by ear - picking up all kinds of aural nuances - and music seems to piggyback on that, if given the chance.

It's well known, for example, that there's a much higher incidence of absolute pitch among speakers of tonal languages, such as Chinese. Pitch difference - the pitch shape of a syllable - affects meaning in those languages, so infants natural pick up those finer points, and it transfers to music later. (Not all tonal speakers have AP, but that's because the languages only require good relative pitch. AP is just a by-product of that extra focus on pitch meaning.)

Of course, absolute pitch is not a very useful musical skill, but it shows that human infants are capable of learning refined pitch discrimination. The conclusion is that the potential is in all of us (as a result of the language instinct), and differences are down to cultural background and upbringing.

Of course, once one is past the age of around 6, musical skill might as well be inborn in just the lucky few. It might as well be just the way it looks, because past that age it's increasingly harder to learn. Just as it's harder for us to learn a foreign language wholly by ear than it was to learn our mother tongue when we were 3 or 4.

The problem with the "gifted" hypothesis is not that it's unsupported by science (videos of child prodigies prove nothing), but that it encourages the view that "untalented" people may as well not waste their time trying to be musical. Music is only for those "lucky" few. That's not true at all. Even if your own infancy was not blessed with the right musical environment to make performing music feel like a natural part of life (as happened to those child prodigies), you still have music in you. You might never be a "genius", but music can still (and should) be a rewarding part of your life. In any case, genius itself is a romantic western myth - as if there is only a "talented" minority and an "untalented" majority.
In parts of Africa, music is a part of everyone's lives; everybody sings. It doesn't make sense to them to claim that one "can't sing". It would be like saying you can't play soccer because you don't know how to kick a ball. You have a voice, you can speak, therefore you can sing - that's their view. Those of us in the west who feel (with reason!) we "can't sing" have just never spent enough time trying, especially when young. We're victims of the "talent myth" - the notion that music is the preserve of a professional elite, not something that is the birthright of all of us.
Music is not a profession, it's a form of recreation - like sport. We all feel we can indulge in various amateur games and sports when we feel like it, simply because it's enjoyable; we don't think it's a waste of time because we'll never be good enough to go pro!

Like anything, you get better at it the more time you devote to it. It's tougher when you're older, for sure, but there's still nothing genetic to stand in your way. Claiming lack of talent is just an excuse. Lack of interest is OK! As adults, we can't all afford the time necessary. Life forces other choices on us. It often tells us music is just an optional add-on, it's "just playing". As if "playing" wasn't something fundamental for all humans!