NGD...and a problem

[maxtheaxe]

I've just run into a snag and would like to have the opinion of someone with daily experience doing actual high-quality repair/modification work. I just bought a nice 2015 Larrivee OM-40R from a guy on Craigslist; good deal, guitar came with K&K PWM installed and it is in excellent condition...you can tell it was hardly played because most of the satin finish remains on the neck...hasn't polished out much from playing, and there is virtually zero fret wear. The guitar plays and sounds wonderful after I sanded about 1mm from the saddle and reduced the neck relief a bit, which was excessive...no big deal...BUT...

Someone has done a really ham-fisted job of slotting the bridge-pin holes. Am I right in opining that when slotting these holes, one should never cut past the bridge, into the top and the plate? Because that is what has occurred here; the slots were cut right through, putting notches in the top, between the bridge and the plate. Also, when they cut through the bridge plate, they ripped a big chunk of wood out along the axis of the pin-holes, so there is now a jagged groove in the inside surface of the rosewood plate. One thing I've found is that the swage on the ball-end of the 6th string gets jammed in that slot and needs to be pried out with needle-nose pliers to remove it...with a risk of chipping the wood even further.

I've seen some contradictory info on this...Stewmac's primer on this says that the slots should be cut vertically (??!!), but that would cut through the top and plate, so that doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me like those slots should be ramped...and the top and plate left unmolested. AmIright?

When I played the guitar initially, I didn't notice how funky these slots were...I guess the lesson here, when buying used from private party (something I rarely do), is to take the time to remove strings at the bridge and look inside, and inspect the condition of the holes and interior. On closer examination, they were also slotted a bit off-center...just a bad job and will require replacement of bridge and plate...quoted to me by Larrivee at $250.00 plus shipping both ways. So much for my "good deal".

For now the guitar plays and sounds fantastic, but I'm going to have to call this seller and ask him, diplomatically, where he had the work done. I'm guessing that he did it himself, but if a "luthier" did it, that one needs to be avoided and perhaps billed for the repair.

I'd very much appreciate someone's take on this.
Thanks,
Max

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

Am I right in opining that when slotting these holes, one should never cut past the bridge, into the top and the plate?
Max

No.




.

[maxtheaxe]

So...what then?

[charles Tauber]

The ideal is to have a slot sufficient to accommodate the string when used with an un-slotted bridge pin. To do that, one cuts into the bridge, top and bridge plate.

If one does not cut into the bridge, top and bridge plate, there is no space to accommodate the string when used with un-slotted bridge pins. If un-slotted bridge pins are not used - or slotted pins used, but with the slot not facing away from the string - it negates the reason for slotting the bridge pin holes. (The reasons for slotting bridge pin holes has been discussed many times and can be found easily in a search.)

To ease the string exiting the pin hole, the slot should be angled towards the saddle, resulting in a slot that is vertical for the "bottom" part of the hole and angled towards the top surface of the bridge.

Slotting bridge pin holes should not splinter the bridge plate - or other parts.

If the alignment of the slots bothers you, or impedes your playing, take it to a qualified repair person to have the slots adjusted. If the strings' balls catch in the splintered bridge plate, ditto, a qualified repair person can deal with that. Unless the damage is severe, it is unlikely that the bridge plate needs to be replaced: there are other (less expensive) remedies to be discussed with the person who performs the work.

[Truckjohn]

As Charles says..

The slots are supposed to go through the bridge plate. The idea is to take the pressure from retaining the strings off of the bridge pins and transfer it to the bridge plate.

You only need a very small slot to accomodate the strings... It sounds like one or two of your slots are too tight or are not dressed properly. That's an easy enough fix.

On the bridge plate damage. 99% chance this happened during manufacturing at Larivee when they drilled the bridge pin holes. Sadly - its not uncommon. There are luthiers who can repair the chipped out holes if it worries you or if you are seeing string balls rubbing against the spruce top.

[Rodger Knox]

Chuck & Truck have it covered. Slotting takes the pressure off the pins. Ramping is something else, it's purpose is to increase break angle with a low saddle.

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Chuck & Truck have it covered. Slotting takes the pressure off the pins. Ramping is something else, it's purpose is to increase break angle with a low saddle.

OK...this sounds like I was failing to distinguish between slotting the pin holes to accommodate un-slotted pins, and cutting a slotted ramp to increase break angle. Thanks for the clarification.

Since that guitar comes with slotted pins I can't see what they were trying to accomplish. The bridge certainly has enough height to give a good break angle, even after shaving it down 1mm. Maybe someone just freaking out about "break angle!!!"

I have some pics of this, but for some reason I can't seem to get imgur to load...I'll put pix up as soon as I get sorted out here...

...and here we go...

[BradHall]

Pretty rough job of slotting the pin holes. I would clean them up with a few different needle files. You want a smooth slot that allows free string movement from the nut to the saddle without getting snagged on the slots.

[Rodger Knox]

That looks to me like both slotting and ramping, but it could be just extreame ramping. The purpose of slotting is to ensure that the ball end of the string is securely seated against the bridge plate, and not wedged in by the pin. It was typical before slotted plastic pins became "standard".

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

That looks to me like both slotting and ramping, but it could be just extreame ramping. The purpose of slotting is to ensure that the ball end of the string is securely seated against the bridge plate, and not wedged in by the pin. It was typical before slotted plastic pins became "standard".

Yeah, huh...

These guitars come with slotted bone pins, so cutting through the bridge, top and plate simply lacks rationale or finesse in my book...seems to be just asking for trouble, especially the risk of ripping/chipping the wood out at the edge of the holes in the plate, which is what has happened.

I think most modern production guitars, even those like this one made using "legacy" specs, come with slotted pins, and hacking away at it like this...well...

Personally, even if I were willing to consider doing something like this, I would obsess over it and sweat the details for weeks and weeks, acquire all the correct tools, etc., until I was sure that I could make it appear AND function like it was an original feature of the instrument. Whomever did this didn't even bother to lay it out so the slots would be on center, and they appear to have used some kind of rather coarse-toothed saw...I'm thinking a nice fine, sharp, gauged file would be the thing to use.

I guess the next question would be "how hard would it be for an inexperienced but detail-obsessive guy like me to replace the bridge and plate on a guitar like this?" Or, can this be saved without having pin slots that look like canyons?

[Truckjohn]

I like both slotting and ramping. Slotting to avoid the string ball damage aroujd the pin holes. Ramping to reduce the sharp corner at the pin hole which can kink strings and cause breaking a string.

Your slots do look a bit rough. Have a luthier clean them up for you so the strings go in and out smoothly and call it good.

Its hard to see in the pix - but I think I can make out the damage between the bridge pin holes. This was clearly done at the factory when they drilled the bridge pin holes.....

Nothing in those photos indicate that bridge or bridge replacement are required, or even desirable. The slots are not the neatest, but they could be pretty easily cleaned up to look much better. Even as is, the only time you really see the rough work is with the strings out. With strings and pins in place, most of that is hidden.

As already noted, slotted bridge should have solid pins. You can rotate the current slotted pins 90 degrees as a temporary measure, but it is better to get solid pins and ream the holes slightly if necessary to make them fit.

Also as already noted, slotted bridges and solid pins are structurally superior to slotted pins. I'd suggest cleaning the slots up a little, fitting solid pins, and enjoying the guitar.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I'd suggest cleaning the slots up a little, fitting solid pins, and enjoying the guitar.

+1






.

[maxtheaxe]

Thanks, guys. I'll try cleaning these up a bit, get some solid pins from Bob Colosi, see how it goes.

Might be an excuse to get something really special from Colosi...

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I'd suggest cleaning the slots up a little, fitting solid pins, and enjoying the guitar.

+2
Todd can probably tell us when slotted pins became "standard", I'd guess it was late 40's or early 50's.