Consumers...how do you judge a guitar? What makes it great?

[TomB'sox]

Okay apparently cannot let this go. Really, the bevels are nonsense. Have you not seen any of the post by people who are getting older and need comfortable guitars to play ergonomically and the bevels help tremendously with that. Embellishments to make the guitar works of art that's nonsense? I think your post was nonsense.

[Portland Bill]

Andres Segovia gave concerts well in to his 80's and not a bevel in sight, the many other millions of classical guitar players seem to manage with out them, it seems to be an affliction that only steel string players suffer with ?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Portland Bill

Andres Segovia gave concerts well in to his 80's and not a bevel in sight, the many other millions of classical guitar players seem to manage with out them, it seems to be an affliction that only steel string players suffer with ?

Well, I for one am NOT Segovia....

Going by this reasoning, Abraham Lincoln did not move around in a motorized vehicle. That means our current president should go around on horse and buggy?

[6L6]

If it says "Collings" on the headstock, it's automatically a great guitar. No exceptions.

[Portland Bill]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Well, I for one am NOT Segovia....

Going by this reasoning, Abraham Lincoln did not move around in a motorized vehicle. That means our current president should go around on horse and buggy?

What a preposterous analogy, by that same reckoning vintage guitars are useless because they don't have sound ports or bevels ?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Portland Bill

What a preposterous analogy, by that same reckoning vintage guitars are useless because they don't have sound ports or bevels ?

Nope, just making a point that everything has its place....

[Steve Kinnaird]

Originally Posted by Portland Bill

Andres Segovia gave concerts well in to his 80's and not a bevel in sight, the many other millions of classical guitar players seem to manage with out them, it seems to be an affliction that only steel string players suffer with ?

Just a simple observation that classical guitars are *almost* always more diminutive than their steel string cousins. They are easier to envelope with the right arm. (Plus the posture of the classical player helps.)
I do have some customers with genuine issues in their right shoulder, such as tendonitis, who tell me they just can't play a guitar of steel string dimensions without a bevel.
Obviously, the bevel is trendy--but for some it is a godsend.

Steve

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Steve Kinnaird

Just a simple observation that classical guitars are *almost* always more diminutive than their steel string cousins. They are easier to envelope with the right arm. (Plus the posture of the classical player helps.)
I do have some customers with genuine issues in their right shoulder, such as tendonitis, who tell me they just can't play a guitar of steel string dimensions without a bevel.
Obviously, the bevel is trendy--but for some it is a godsend.

Steve

A great point, aside from being not as deep typically. ...

[TomB'sox]

Some people just seem to have a need for stirring the pot, intentionally I believe...there is plenty of room for each opinion which was the point of this thread.

How about:

I prefer a very traditional guitar with minimal appts. For me, bevels, sound ports, fancy inlays etc. are extras I just don't want on my guitars. So, how do I judge a great guitar, no frills for me, just great sound....

That is pretty much what was said and yet it did not insult other views, demean features that builders and customers are putting into their guitars and does not minimize the likes of others to the realms of "nonsense".

[invguy921]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

Some people just seem to have a need for stirring the pot, intentionally I believe...there is plenty of room for each opinion which was the point of this thread.

How about:

I prefer a very traditional guitar with minimal appts. For me, bevels, sound ports, fancy inlays etc. are extras I just don't want on my guitars. So, how do I judge a great guitar, no frills for me, just great sound....

That is pretty much what was said and yet it did not insult other views, demean features that builders and customers are putting into their guitars and does not minimize the likes of others to the realms of "nonsense".

Tom,

My thoughts exactly. A GREAT thread, with an opportunity to go south, or hopefully just move on from this point forward with the content intended...without the skuffles.

Thanks IN ADVANCE to all!

[Nemoman]

Well put, Tom and Woody. As a guitar player with hearing issues and a right shoulder double rotator cuff repair, I truly appreciate soundports and bevels. They aren't aesthetic frills to me anymore--they're necessities to playing in relative comfort!

[sayheyjeff]

What I look for is tone and structural condition. Visual appeal is nice and can influence my decision, but it is secondary. Setup is far less important to me as I have found local super luthier Todd Stock is able to easily and affordable make sure a new acquisition gets set up just the way I like it.

Jeff

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

Some people just seem to have a need for stirring the pot, intentionally I believe...there is plenty of room for each opinion which was the point of this thread.

How about:

I prefer a very traditional guitar with minimal appts. For me, bevels, sound ports, fancy inlays etc. are extras I just don't want on my guitars. So, how do I judge a great guitar, no frills for me, just great sound....

That is pretty much what was said and yet it did not insult other views, demean features that builders and customers are putting into their guitars and does not minimize the likes of others to the realms of "nonsense".

I think though for Mr. Portland Bill, he again is making comparisons between the Spanish-style and steel string guitars, which is difficult to do by their very nature. Aside form Steve Kinnaird's observation of the Spanish guitars having smaller outlines, they are also about 1" to 1-1/4" or more thinner front to back. Also typically they are held differently than steel string guitars, with the neck held up, placing the forearm more toward the waist of the guitar. More often than not the steel string is sitting on the right lap with the neck more or less horizontal, which places the forearm near the deepest, widest part of the (steel string) guitar.

Being small in height, however, I from the start have always placed my steel string on my left leg with the neck up, or sometimes place the lower bout on my right leg with the neck pointing up flamenco-style, and the body of the guitar tilted slightly toward me so I'm slightly "on top" of it. But both ways make it easier for me to reach over the guitar. But for some styles this may not be beneficial - flatpicking, or left hand fretting that involves the thumb, for example. So there are quite a few reasons that someone would like to keep that richness of bass on a steel string that depth can provide, yet still play in relative comfort.

[Portland Bill]

Regardless of how you defend it, most (not all) build threads on here are totally concerned with cosmetics, drooling over rosettes or how fancy you can make the end block inlay.
The classical and jazz players on their respective instruments have very little interest in this kind of superficiality.

[iim7V7IM7]

Anthony,

The internet is an inherently visual medium and most of the discussion here is by non-luthier players. The conversation naturally gravitates towards the visual, ergonomic and tactile. Tonal and structural issues are either difficult to describe in words adequately or are really best discussed by those skilled in the art. Is this surprising to you?

The classical world has its own set of these features as well. From construction (Mathias Dammann or Greg Smallman) to sound-ports (Robert Ruck) to elevated fingerboards (Thomas Humphrey) to 12-hole bridges (many) to the unique aesthetic foibles of a builders signature rosette and headstock, all exist in the world of classical guitars! Lutherie continues beyond Torres, Hauser, Bouchet, Fleta and Romanillos not just in sound but in other aspects as well. The same is true in jazz guitar. John Monteleone's and Ken Parker's work are fairly far removed from Loar, Stromberg and D'Angelico.

What is useless to you is obviously important to others. These are "custom" guitars and the bespoke aspects can be tonal, ergonomic or aesthetic. People are just trying to articulate what moves them when considering a guitar. Looking over your posting history, you seem to like to present contrarian or controversial statements and to follow up by arguing. Pretty much the definition of trolling on the internet: "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.".

To many of us, we find this a hugely useless activity perhaps just as you find the focus on guitar aesthetics to be a waste of time.

To each his own I guess...