What exactly do you mean by "minor key"?

[agfsteve]

Originally Posted by FwL

Well... what is a true key then?

The twelve that are named from the twelve notes (going around the circle of fifths):

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F

All other so-called keys are technically modes of one of the above, e.g. we refer to the key of A minor by convention, but it is really the Aeolian mode of the key of C. Otherwise, if we say that "A minor" is a key, then we must say that "G Myxolidian" is also a key, as is "D Dorian", "E Phrygian", etc. There's nothing wrong with that--I just don't see why the Aeolian mode deserves "key" status, whereas the other modes apparently do not.

Or maybe there really is something special that I'm not aware of about the Aeolian mode that separates it from all the other modes?

I should continue to point out that the above is just the way I see it as a newbie. It seems logical this way.

[Ze.]

Nobody seems to have yet mentioned that all twelve major keys get their names from each step of the Chromatic scale which is the C major scale with all the sharps and flats in between the notes of the C major scale ...twelve steps in all .

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

OK, so in those 15 there are 3 with alternate names, i.e. C#/Db, F#/Gb, and B/Cb, so it still appears to this newbie that you have your basic 12 keys (three with alternate names), and everything else is not actually a true key, but is really a mode of that key, and it's only by convention that one of those modes (Aeolian) is called a key.

Minor keys are valid entities, as much as major keys. There are 12 major keys and 12 minor keys.

In principle, you could regard minor keys as primary, and say "well, C major isn't really a key, it's just a mode of A minor". See what I mean?

In practice, the relative major does tend to be treated as primary, if only because it needs no alteration for all the chords and cadences to work. Minor keys need altering, by raising the 7th degree and sometimes the 6th, to make the cadences stronger.
In that sense you could say that for minor keys to work properly they have to borrow major key effects, in particular the major V chord. So you could say that means they are "inferior" to major keys.

Major keys can also use all kinds of chromaticism, but they don't need to.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

The twelve that are named from the twelve notes (going around the circle of fifths):

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F

All other so-called keys are technically modes of one of the above, e.g. we refer to the key of A minor by convention, but it is really the Aeolian mode of the key of C. Otherwise, if we say that "A minor" is a key, then we must say that "G Myxolidian" is also a key, as is "D Dorian", "E Phrygian", etc. There's nothing wrong with that--I just don't see why the Aeolian mode deserves "key" status, whereas the other modes apparently do not.

Or maybe there really is something special that I'm not aware of about the Aeolian mode that separates it from all the other modes?

I should continue to point out that the above is just the way I see it as a newbie. It seems logical this way.

Key is one thing, scale is another. Historically, there has been a great deal of debate about whether modes are scales. The arguments about the different uses of modes/scales get pretty complex. I do think that seeing them all as scales is a very useful concept for learners, whether theorists see it that way or not. I think that's similar to what you are getting at.

[zhunter]

I suppose if you are a dedicated reader, looking at a staff with no sharps and flats after the clef, might lead you to conclude key of C regardless of what follows. And that is right in one strict sense.

But it is more useful from a standpoint of melody, improvisation, progression and communication to think of the key of the song as the center about which the melody and harmony moves, arrives and departs. And it is equally helpful to understand the parent scale from which the minor key harmony derives. And also important to know that the key center can change and recognize that as the song progresses.

If I am calling a song and it starts on Am and revolves around Am, I am calling the key as Am to the other players. Odds are a lot better we will start together that way.

hunter

[agfsteve]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Minor keys are valid entities, as much as major keys. There are 12 major keys and 12 minor keys.

I guess I am not really grasping the difference between a key and a mode then.

Is a minor key the same as the Aeolian mode of the major key?

If it is, then that means that if we then have the KEY of, say, A minor (Aeolian mode of C), then we also would have a KEY of D Dorian, a KEY of E Phrygian, a KEY of F Lydian, etc. So my question is, if we give KEY status to "x minor", why don't we give KEY status to "x Dorian", "x Phrygian", "x Lydian", etc? What is so special about "minor" that makes it a KEY?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

The twelve that are named from the twelve notes (going around the circle of fifths):

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#/Gb, C#/Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F

All other so-called keys are technically modes of one of the above, e.g. we refer to the key of A minor by convention, but it is really the Aeolian mode of the key of C. Otherwise, if we say that "A minor" is a key, then we must say that "G Myxolidian" is also a key, as is "D Dorian", "E Phrygian", etc. There's nothing wrong with that--I just don't see why the Aeolian mode deserves "key" status, whereas the other modes apparently do not.

Or maybe there really is something special that I'm not aware of about the Aeolian mode that separates it from all the other modes?

I should continue to point out that the above is just the way I see it as a newbie. It seems logical this way.

Right. But it's all down to history, not logic!

If I can try and make a very long story stupidly short....

Back in the middle ages, the modal system ruled European music. This means FOUR modes, based on the notes we now call ABCDEFG. No sharps or flats. The four "authentic" modes were Dorian (DEFGABCD), Phrygian (EFGABCDE), Lydian (FGABCDEF) and Mixolydian (GABCDEFG). No Ionian, no Aeolian. No "keys" of any kind.

Each mode could be extended down below their roots by a 4th, to form the so-called "plagal" modes. E.g., "Hypodorian" (meaning "lower dorian") was ABCDEFGA.
The important point here is that the root note or "final" of Hypodorian was still D, not A. A wasn't the root of anything. If you want a modern comparison, think of "Happy Birthday". The tune covers an octave, from the 5th to the 5th of the scale. The keynote is the 4th up from the lowest note. This means it uses the "plagal range" of the major scale. If it starts on a G note (lowest note in the tune), it means the key is C major - not G major or G mixolydian.
IOW, lowest notes are just lowest notes - not necessarily keynotes.

I.e., the reason A is called "A" is just because it was the lowest note of all the notes in use at the time. (Probably because it was comfortable low note for most men to sing - which is still the case with our modern A of 110 Hz.)
The entire range in use covered two octaves, from the bottom A of Hypodorian to the top G of Mixolydian. (Equivalent to guitar A string up to G on fret 3 of top E.) Remember this is all about men singing, and very few men can comfortably get much higher or lower than that without straining.
A little later a bottom G was added, labelled as the Greek letter gamma. And an additional higher octave was added on top, for boys or male counter-tenors.

This modal system lasted for around 1000 years, from the 6th century to the 16th. But of course it underwent substantial (if slow) evolution over that period. To begin with, there was no harmony. Singers sang in unison or in octaves. Then perfect 4ths and 5ths were allowed (the "perfect consonances"), in a system known as "organum".
The problem they encountered then was that the modes contained a tritone: F-B, or B-F; an augmented 4th or diminished 5th. This sounded dissonant, so it was avoided. (It was never called "diabolus in musica" at that time, nor ever considered satanic ) Whenever harmonies threatened to approach the tritone, one of the notes would be raised or lowered. Normally it was the B that would be flattened.
This was enough to take care of things for centuries. No other "accidentals" were needed. The use of Bb meant that modes could be transposed. Eg., you could now have a G dorian if you wanted it, or an A phrygian. Wow, the freedom! (This principle of altering the modes to make them run more smoothly was known as "musica ficta".)

It wasn't until the middle of the 16th century that Ionian and Aeolian were finally added to the official theory texts - meaning they had probably been creeping in for decades in practice. (AFAIK, Ionian had been popular with the earlier troubadours, meaning the church would have considered it crude or rude - think of how rock'n'roll was regarded by religious authorities in the mid-50s, or how rap is viewed now.)

Harmonic practices had been developing for some time, and by the 16th century the notion of "keys" was starting to take hold. The way accidentals were acting - particular Bb and F# - seemed to be making Dorian gravitate to Aeolian (by lowering its 6th) and Lydian to Ionian (lowering its 4th), while adding F# to mixolydian made it resemble Ionian. So it was as if Ionian and Aeolian were the inevitable result of all that avoidance of the tritone: the modes that the new harmonic practices were pointing towards.

Moreover, the new system of triadic harmony - since 3rds had become acceptable consonances - meant the tritone could be handled. Yes, it was still dissonant - but move each note by one step, and it became a consonant 3rd (root position or inverted to a minor 6th). B-F could be used, because the tension could be resolved by following it with C-E.

This is what the new system of "keys" or "tonality" was all about: the deliberate use of harmonic tensions to set up movement through a sequence. It was rather like discovering that fire wasn't just a destructive thing to be avoided, but it could be harnessed for heating and cooking. The key system (major and minor) harnessed dissonance for creative purposes.

Ionian was naturally suited to this harmonic system because of how the tritone resolved. The natural root of C and E (even when E is on the bottom) is C, Ionian's root. C-E are also chord tones of Am, which helped aeolian become the essential "dark" counterpart to the relative major. (Previously the modes had divided into major - lydian, mixolydian - and minor - phrygian, dorian. Ionian and Aeolian were like the average mid-points of each of those pairs.)
All that the minor key needed was the leading tone to the root, hence the convention of "harmonic minor", raising the 7th step whenever the root was approached from below. This was only the same sort of thing that "musica ficta" had been doing for centuries, adjusting scales to make harmonies work better.

The interesting thing about this "major-minor key system" is that - while the extraordinary edifice of classical music was built on it - it had essentially burnt itself out after around 300 years (unlike that 1,000 year modal system, itself deriving from the even older Greek system). The Post-Romantic composers of around 100 years ago considered it worn out. All its tricks had been exploited, there was nothing new to be found in it. Hence the 20thC moves into impressionism, serialism, etc., the search for fresh new musical languages. Jazz followed suit around 50 years later when the avant garde tried to clear the decks of standard jazz harmony and try "modal jazz" (a mix of classical impressionism and African and Indian folk music).
Meanwhile, popular music of all kinds never got bored with the key system. The whole point of "popular" music is to be popular, and most audiences like what they know, what's familiar. The avant garde never gets very far in the pop sphere. You can't singalong with Schoenberg, any more than you can with Ornette Coleman.
So the key system is alive and well in pop and rock music - even if it has been roughed up somewhat by modal sensibilities: had its corners knocked off, had its tie loosened, its jacket unbuttoned, its neat hair messed up a litte. That strict classical system has been dragged out of its ivory tower into the market place and on to the dirty streets. It's had to learn some new slang...

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

I guess I am not really grasping the difference between a key and a mode then.

Is a minor key the same as the Aeolian mode of the major key?

If it is, then that means that if we then have the KEY of, say, A minor (Aeolian mode of C), then we also would have a KEY of D Dorian, a KEY of E Phrygian, a KEY of F Lydian, etc. So my question is, if we give KEY status to "x minor", why don't we give KEY status to "x Dorian", "x Phrygian", "x Lydian", etc? What is so special about "minor" that makes it a KEY?

Am from Dorian and Phyrgian is also a minor key. The functional harmony will help establish which version is the scale generating the harmony. Take a standard one four change in a minor key. An Am to Dm progression tells me A Aeolian (C major scale) is generating harmony. Am to D progression tells me A Dorian (G major) is where the harmony comes from. A little functional harmony analysis will tell you why.

In either case, in lieu of other defining information, I consider the song to be in Am.

hunter

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

KEY of D Dorian, a KEY of E Phrygian, a KEY of F Lydian, etc. So my question is, if we give KEY status to "x minor", why don't we give KEY status to "x Dorian", "x Phrygian", "x Lydian", etc? What is so special about "minor" that makes it a KEY?

In a sense, this is describing key, D Dorian is the Dorian pattern of intervals (scale?) starting at D. It's in D in that sense. You can, of course, start the Dorian "scale" on any note. Sometimes guitar theory courses fail to explain that.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

I guess I am not really grasping the difference between a key and a mode then.

Is a minor key the same as the Aeolian mode of the major key?

Not exactly. The minor key involves occasional alterations to the mode, in particular the raising of the 7th note to create a "leading tone" to the tonic: the practice known as "harmonic minor". "Melodic minor" means raising the 6th too, specifically in melodic lines rising to the tonic.

IOW, the "minor key" means "aeolian mode basically, but with variable 6th and 7th degrees".

What the major and minor keys share is the dom7 chord on the V step which resolves firmly to the tonic triad. None of the (other) modes do that.

However, in modern music, it's quite common (and acceptable) to say a piece in A aeolian mode (with no harmonic or melodic minor alterations) is "in A minor", or "in key of A minor". Only the pedantic few would say "actually it's in A aeolian mode, or A natural minor."

Originally Posted by agfsteve

If it is, then that means that if we then have the KEY of, say, A minor (Aeolian mode of C), then we also would have a KEY of D Dorian, a KEY of E Phrygian, a KEY of F Lydian, etc.

But we don't. This is where strictness of definitions comes in.

In particular, the system based on major and minor "keys" involves a whole system of chords built in 3rds, each of which has a function - a role to play in sequences leading ultimately to the "tonic". The system evolved out of the previous modal system (see my lengthy post on the history above).

So although we can say (loosely) that D dorian has a "keynote" of D, it doesn't mean that it's a "key" in the sense that D major and D minor are "keys". While it has a raised 6th, like in D melodic minor, it has no leading tone (C#). It will have no A major V chord, and no Gm iv chord (it will have G major instead).
Even more noticeable, it will probably have very few other chords. It will probably have some kind of open-ended groove, with no sense of chord "progression".

This is the legacy of modal jazz, which attempted to create a modal music distinctly different from the previous major-minor key music (as used in jazz standards and bebop). They did this partly by avoiding standard chord sequences, and standard chord forms, focusing on melody and making the harmony ambiguous or static.

Rock doesn't follow those practices to the letter, but it does often treat keys in a pseudo-modal fashion (by employing one-chord grooves), or treats modes in a pseudo-key fashion (by giving them chord progressions).

When we talk about "keys" now, in modern rock music, we use "major" and "minor" quite loosely. All they really refer to is the nature of the tonic chord.

A song "in E major" - based on E, A and B chords - might well also use D, G C or Am chords, considered as "borrowed from E minor", but really representing a spectrum of chords from E ionian-mixolydian-dorian-aeolian - but centred on a major tonic chord.

Likewise a song "in E minor" will have an Em tonic chord, and probably an Am iv chord. It might have either B or Bm as V. It will probably have a D, G or C somewhere. It might have an A major IV chord. That all suggests a combination of E aeolian, E dorian, and E harmonic and melodic minor. Certainly if it used B or B7 instead of Bm, we'd say "key of E minor" (regardless of what other chords there were, as long as Em was obviously the key chord).

It's when a song sticks purely to one modal scale that it makes sense to identify that as a mode rather than a key.

So if our "E major key" song contained E, A and D chords, but no B, then we might say it's "In E mixolydian", or "E mixolydian mode". We wouldn't say "in the key of E mixolydian" because that's a redundant phrase: "E mixolydian" already specifies the keynote.

Likewise, if our "E minor key" tune featured an A major chord, maybe with a D or Bm too, possibly a G, but no Am, C or B major chords, then we might say it's "in E dorian mode". Again "the key of E dorian" is a misuse of terminology, a grammatical error if you like.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

In a sense, this is describing key, D Dorian is the Dorian pattern of intervals (scale?) starting at D. It's in D in that sense. You can, of course, start the Dorian "scale" on any note. Sometimes guitar theory courses fail to explain that.

The essential missing element there is that D is the keynote (tonal centre). That's not dependent on starting note, nor on which note is lowest.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

In a sense, this is describing key, D Dorian is the Dorian pattern of intervals (scale?) starting at D. It's in D in that sense. You can, of course, start the Dorian "scale" on any note. Sometimes guitar theory courses fail to explain that.

Originally Posted by JonPR

The essential missing element there is that D is the keynote (tonal centre). That's not dependent on starting note, nor on which note is lowest.

Ok, tonal centre, not precisely the starting note. The gist is "Dorian" doesn't mean D which a lot of beginners misunderstand. There can be a C Dorian, a B Dorian, an E Dorian, etc.

[mattbn73]

Major/minor functional harmony is distinguished primarily by the leading tone to the tonic and the resulting tritone in the Dominant V7 chord. "Natural minor" isn't really functional in the same sense. if a tune is in "natural minor" the whole time, it's basically Aeolian, modal. The 6 and 7 are very often "in play" in minor, but it's probably most helpful, especially in the beginning, to think of the starting point for minor as being HARMONIC minor rather than NATURAL minor. The term "Natural minor" is mainly used for theory purposes , for disambiguation with other forms of minor. It's not really tonal/functional.

Honestly, key signatures are whole different deal. It's somewhat distracting that the 7th is basically "altered" from the key signature in harmonic minor, but there's just no getting around this basic fact : relationships of parallel and relative minor keys are some of the most confusing aspects of beginning music theory.

Forget all the words for second, and just check out minor key chord progressions which have an actual V chord - major or dominant 7. Minor chord progressions aren't simply major chord progressions in a different order. They have a very distinct Tonic, sub dominant and dominant functional sound, just as major keys do. Same is true for single note lines/melodies based around the same. Start with harmonic minor. It isn't simply major in a different order.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Ok, tonal centre, not precisely the starting note. The gist is "Dorian" doesn't mean D which a lot of beginners misunderstand. There can be a C Dorian, a B Dorian, an E Dorian, etc.

Right. There's a whole lot of misunderstandings around modes!

[perttime]

We have technical explanations, so far ... but what does a minor key DO?

To me, songs played in minor key and/or using minor chords often get a melancholy mood.