How to get a BIG acoustic sound.

[moon]

Here's another good recording, posted in Show and Tell recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG4XsZIm9SA

Forget the member's name now - might be postprimitive? The guitar is a Collings OM2H.

[Ty Ford]

Hey Fich,

Thanks. Words! Can you explain what you mean by too live?

Regards,

Ty Ford

[orsino]

Howard Emerson's albums have always been my some of my favorites, and with 6 month old strings too! Go figure.

Too me, the "standard" in big-guitar recordings is Bensusan's Intuite. I'll let the techies tell you why (as I haven't a clue; it's verb-rich, I do know that). I know Doug interviewed him (I think?) once.

It may have already been said, but be sure to play all of your finished recordings in as many different players as possible. I have found that if my tunes sound good in the run-of-the-mill Alpine player in my 1999 Honda Civic, they will sound good anywhere.
I want to trade in the car, but it is an important element of my recording chain.

[moon]

That's funny - I do the same. Never mind the more expensive gear: if it passes the car test I know I've got a mix.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Hey Fich,
Thanks. Words! Can you explain what you mean by too live?
Regards,
Ty Ford

It sounds like you are in the room with the player to me. The reverb (was it natural?) was really bright and present to me. That's not what I am looking for at the moment, but I love the way it sounded.

Originally Posted by orsino

Howard Emerson's albums have always been my some of my favorites, and with 6 month old strings too! Go figure.

Too me, the "standard" in big-guitar recordings is Bensusan's Intuite. I'll let the techies tell you why (as I haven't a clue; it's verb-rich, I do know that). I know Doug interviewed him (I think?) once.

It may have already been said, but be sure to play all of your finished recordings in as many different players as possible. I have found that if my tunes sound good in the run-of-the-mill Alpine player in my 1999 Honda Civic, they will sound good anywhere.
I want to trade in the car, but it is an important element of my recording chain.

In a brief search (And I mean google top 10 hits brief) I can't find anything on Bensusan's Intuite. Can you tell me more about that? Oh nevermind. That's a last name. Got it.

And yeah, my recordings for my band and solo electric guitar tracks all go through my monitors, really nice headphones, crappy ipod headphones, nicer earbuds, on a CD through my regular speakers, mp3 through my regular speakers and finally CD and mp3 in my car before I give them to the other bandmates/friends. The car is always the final test for me.

[LuvAcoustic6]

The easiest way to get a big acoustic sound using a pickup, is to have a true stereo pickup system in your guitar.
True left and right, so that when you plug in to a recorder, you are getting 2 true lines in (stereo) from one guitar.
It'll sound massive.

Trance Audio Amulet System , would be the best and yet most economic way to get it that ive ever heard.

If you are a purist and only want to use a mic to record, then, there are quite a few different stereo mics on the market.
Rode has a fairly nice one.

The other way i like to get a huge sound on tape, is to use a mic and record the part/song with the same mic 2x. (doubling)
The phase issues created can really evolve the sound into something beautifully spectacular as long as you are able to play both parts basically identical regarding your timing.
That the key.
Timing and being careful of the tuning.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by LuvAcoustic6

The easiest way to get a big acoustic sound using a pickup, is to have a true stereo pickup system in your guitar.
True left and right, so that when you plug in to a recorder, you are getting 2 true lines in (stereo) from one guitar.
It'll sound massive.

Trance Audio Amulet System , would be the best and yet most economic way to get it that ive ever heard.

If you are a purist and only want to use a mic to record, then, there are quite a few different stereo mics on the market.
Rode has a fairly nice one.

The other way i like to get a huge sound on tape, is to use a mic and record the part/song with the same mic 2x. (doubling)
The phase issues created can really evolve the sound into something beautifully spectacular as long as you are able to play both parts basically identical regarding your timing.
That the key.
Timing and being careful of the tuning.

I have my guitar all set up for live use so I'm not gonna change the pickup (LR Baggs anthem). I also can't afford the Rode NT-4, though I know a lot of people use it. As for double tracking, I can do that with most strumming songs, but not the fingerstyle stuff I do. All good ideas had I the resources to take advantage of them.

[Fichtezc]

Okay guys. I have some tracks. A few things to keep in mind:

I recorded these in the worst possible conditions. In my room, with my roommate in. I really didn't want to disturb him so I just recorded with him in the room. I also just drove for 4 hours so I'm kinda tired. One request: don't comment on the playing please.

The mic set ups and stuff are listed in the tracks.

What do you guys think? These may be some of the better acoustic records I've done with set up, recording and editing I spent probably an hour on both.


http://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/ga-and-sm

http://soundcloud.com/fichtezc/stereo-sms


Signal chain:

Taylor 712 with cedar top into Shure SM57s (one new in 2009 and one from the 80, there is a difference apparently on acoustic guitars), a Golden Age Project FC1 mk.ii, into an E-Mu tracker Pre into a Macbook into Garageband.

I didn't use the pickup. I want to get a big sound with mics THEN a bigger one with a pick up.


Once again, I can't thank you guys enough for all of the help.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

What do you guys think?

What do *you* think? If you're happy, that's great. To me, these tracks are pretty thin, and a bit distant. I'd keep at it, unless this really is the sound you're after. A way to speed up the learning process is to play something short and simple. No need to record an entire tune until you can make one measure sound the way you want. That allows a lot quicker cycle's on experimenting.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

What do *you* think? If you're happy, that's great. To me, these tracks are pretty thin, and a bit distant. I'd keep at it, unless this really is the sound you're after. A way to speed up the learning process is to play something short and simple. No need to record an entire tune until you can make one measure sound the way you want. That allows a lot quicker cycle's on experimenting.

I'm not quite happy with it yet but it's an improvement over anything else I have done so far. I'll definitely do shorter stuff to practice next time, that's a good idea.

How do I fix the distance? The GAP/SM57 one is the better one I think and the mics were like, 4-5 inches away. Maybe it's the hyper-reflective qualities of my room?

[rick-slo]

Buy or borrow a couple of decent condenser mikes and see what happens using those.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Buy or borrow a couple of decent condenser mikes and see what happens using those.

The Golden Age is probably the highest quality thing I have to work with unfortunately. Our radio studio uses a set of MXL 990s which sound pretty lifeless next to my GAP. I'll see how much money I can put toward one though.

This is it by the way

http://www.mastersoundproaudio.com/c...fc-1-mkii.html

[alohachris]

Aloha Zach,

There have been some great suggestions given to you here, brah. Thanks for sharing the tracks. Good advice about those tracks too.

I'd experiment with a different miking pattern besides a spaced pair, which can be challenging to achieve balance with. Use an X-Y coincident pattern 4-8" inches or more off the fingerboard side of the soundhole & experiment by moving around right & left, & also closer & farther away to find the sweet spot & to keep proximity effect at bay.

Especially when close(r)-miking, the X-Y coincident pattern will give you a meatier, more direct, more complete interior acoustic sound, especially in a dorm room. It's the first example discussed & shown in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI5Hf1ihd78

And these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GU0pBuOrWs

http://www.rainrecording.com/pro/har...ic-techniques/

Here's a brief GS thread you probably could relate to that may help with your dorm room:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-mu...acoustics.html

Get some cheap mover's blankets. A couple of layers temporarily hung around you can really help.

Experiment a bit more with your EQ as well, especially on the mid-range which sounds thin on both tracks, as Doug mentioned. Don't roll off ALL the mid's on the mic's.

The dynamic mic's you have could be coaxed to sound better if you experiment - but not as good as a pair of the same brand/model of S/D condensers would. Down the road on that one with more $.

Check out the school's music dept. (if you have one - where ya goin'?). You may be able to use a treated practice room to experiment in. I did that 40+ years ago in college, dragging my old TEAC reel-to-reel in there a few times per week as space allowed. It taught me a lot about mic placement - good knowledge for every situation.

Yes, create shorter tracks.

But try that X-Y pattern. You may prefer to use an X-Y mic holder, but it's not necessary if you have two mic stands or are creative with duck tape and the back of a chair.

All the best, Zach.

alohachris

[Fichtezc]

I thought about doing an XY. That was my next experiment. It's what I used when I sent it my audition to a few schools. I'll probably do it right now.

Thanks for those links!! Ahh! I've really been looking for some sound proofing appropriate for my room and I think I might be able to do something there.

As for the EQ, I actually didn't even touch the mids. I cut the super highs (17000 and up) on the SM because it was very hissy and did a little cut in the 100 and 200 (by little I mean like 3db) and then a slightly more drastic (5db) cut on everything below 80.

And yeah, I go to Mary Washington in Virginia (I'm a music and History double major) and I do a lot of practicing in our rooms. They're semi sound proofed. They sure sound better than my dorm room! The music buildings are pretty far away however and I can't get my equipment there reasonably. I will have a locker next semester making that a better option since I will be able to leave my equipment and just have to carry my guitar.

[alohachris]

Aloha Zach,

Ah yes, Fredericksburg, near Shiloh. Oh course, "Mary" was an all-girl's school in my day. But I do recall some great times with girls from there in the late 60's when visiting W&M. Great school now!

Here's a link that may help your dorm room:

http://www.uline.com/BL_7900/Moving-...FQoBbAod1Bhyag

I said cheap, didn't I?

Because my house in the rainforest is glass all around on two stories - with 20' high ceilings, I still use double layers, 4" apart of multi-colored mover's blankets hung from above in front of all the glass - that easily roll up. Then I create, with several of the portable 703 panels like Fran's, but nicer looking, a nice portable sweet recording "booth" in my recording room. I also hang a panel or two above that space & leave the floor open with it's nice maple. It works for my purposes!

The main thing is just the playing. All the rest - like recording techniques - are very interesting, but also never as good as playing the music itself. That's why I've been giggin' steady for 47 years - for the LIVE experience of sharing music.

Keep pickin', Zach! And keep experimenting. Mic's & mic placement are an art of their own. I truly love trying out all kinds of mics & experimenting with them.

You will too....after you pay off those MW loan$. Just kidding, my friend. I know the pain, having put a daughter through two Ivy league schools w/ no loans! Eye on the prize, brah!

I sure enjoyed my college years. Had a Live campus radio show on a couple times a week - Rhymes 'n Times. Would play live in the studio with local musicians every week - all kinds from operatic singers, baroque cellists to jug bands & rock bands. People on campus really liked it because it showcased other students that they knew & we were always pushing the censorship envelope of the times. The admin types threatened to shut the show down all the time, but never did. They couldn't wait til I graduated.

I also used to invite & interview visiting artists on air which allowed me to actually meet & jam informally with some of my singer/songwriting heroes in the earlier years: Bonnie Raitt, Tom Rush, Ian Anderson, Buzzy Linhart, Jonathan Edwards, Bill Keith, Kenny Rankin, Buddy Guy, Geoff & Maria Muldaur, James Taylor & Leo Kottke, among several who came on peddling their albums & concerts. Not all played, but I got to meet 'em up close. Bonnie, who was still dragging her own guitar around from gig to gig in those days, jammed every time! She was/is great! Fantastic times, those Skool Daze!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris