Lowering action

[Monk of Funk]

I would like to shave the bottom of my nut, and my bridge, to lower the action on my acoustic guitar.

What do I need to know, in order to make sure that I don't create any buzzing issues?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I would like to shave the bottom of my nut, and my bridge, to lower the action on my acoustic guitar.

What do I need to know, in order to make sure that I don't create any buzzing issues?

First thing would be to first ensure that it actually IS the bridge and/or nut that is causing high action, before you do anything else. This was actually covered in detail not too long ago, so if you scroll down this forum, you'll find the answer...

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

First thing would be to first ensure that it actually IS the bridge and/or nut that is causing high action, before you do anything else. This was actually covered in detail not too long ago, so if you scroll down this forum, you'll find the answer...

All I could see else that it could be, would be bending the neck, but that makes my intonation go the wrong way. It is slightly off already, and that makes it worse.

EDIT: I think I found the thread you were talking about, and asked this there, but, I'm wondering mainly, where the point of contact would generally be for buzzing.

I don't mind shaving down a little bit at a time, and trying out different actions that way, but I need to know where to look, or have some kind of way to know I should not go farther, because once I've gone too far, I'm screwed.

[YamaYairi]

Here is the order to do it in:
1. Adjust the truss rod.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...Adj/tradj.html
2. Adjust the nut height:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...nutaction.html
3. Adjust the saddle height. A luthier friend taught me this great method:
a. Determine how much you want to lower the saddle. Measure the height at the 12th fret from the bottom of the low and high E strings to the top of the fret. I play fingerstyle mostly with some strumming and I use extra light gauge strings. I adjust for 3/32" on the low and high E, because the .010" high E flaps around more and will buzz. If you use higher gauge strings you might be able to get away with 2/32" on the high E. Lower the saddle by 1/32" at a time. That will prevent you from taking off too much.
b. Locate or cut on a table saw, a piece of hard wood, like oak or walnut, with a sharp, square edge. You need a second very flat piece of wood to work on, and another small, like 4" x 1 1/2" to use as a sanding block. You will need some Scotch Permanent Double Sided Tape, the thin stuff you can get at an office supply. Do not use double sided foam tape.
c. Lay the wood with the sharp square edge flat, on top of the work surface. Apply a piece of tape to the top, right at the edge. Use a piece a bit longer than the saddle. Put the saddle on the tape with the bottom hanging over the edge by 1/32". Press down firmly to anchor the saddle.
d. Using the tape, stick a piece of 100 grit sandpaper to your sanding block.
e. Run the sanding block back and forth against the bottom edge of the saddle until it is flush with the wood it is stuck to. Carefully pull the saddle free a little at a time so you don't break it. Leave the tape on the wood, it will be good for several uses.
f. Refit the saddle to the guitar, tune it up and try it.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Shaving down a little bit at a time is a sure method to finally achieve failure. There is a correct amount to remove in every case, and that is the only amount to remove. If any potential home tech is is not able to ascertain exactly how much from where, they would be better off reading than using tools, or going to someone with a clear grasp of the concepts and begging permission to watch the process. Only a small range of potential geometries is "right" and all the others are "wrong". There is little reason to move toward "better" unless it actually falls within the range of "right". IMO.

If the frets are true (big assumption), it is so simple to get set up right. Any buzzing that is not general (on all nearby frets as well) indicates that the frets themselves need attention. This is true at every action height.

Set the relief.

Adjust the nut slots (generally from the top, not the bottom).

Set the saddle height (from the bottom on a modern drop in saddle) Can't go too far wrong with 2/32 e and 3/32 E at the 12th fret.

Intonated saddles are not half as important as people imagine if the saddle location is right in the first place. Martin/Gibson etc built for 100 years with straight saddles.

[Monk of Funk]

I recently changed the nut, and I think it is still a little high. The bridge appears a little high to me as well. The action at the first fret is a little high, and up over the 14th as well.

The relief in the neck looks to be exactly where I'd want it to be. The intonation seems ok for the lower strings, maybe frets a little a little sharp, but definitely the two higher unwound strings are fretting sharp. Not a huge amount, it doesn't ruin playing for me, and I think most people would not notice it, but definitely any seasoned luthier would notice it is sharp without a tuner.

I'm thinking that if the fretted note is sharp, then that must mean that the distance from the fret to the bridge is shorter than from the fret to the nut, which would need adjustment at the bridge.

I was thinking that if I shave the bottom of the bridge, I think that should fix some of that, because fretting from the fret to the bridge would be a diagonal line, whereas left alone it goes straight to the bridge, which means it would be shorter.

So, lowering the bridge, would logically make the distance from the fret on the neck to the bridge, more similar to the spot over the fret on the open string to the bridge.

If all my strings fret a bit sharp, I think that might work to lower my action, and also fix some of the intonation.

I would also like to shave the nut down a bit more. I just don't want to lower it so much I get buzzing.

I'm not sure exactly where is the main danger spot for buzzing. I'm thinking it must be around the 12th fret.


Basically, I want to lower the strings to the fretboard without altering the relief, hopefully fix a bit of intonation if possible, while I'm at it, and avoid buzzing at all costs.

I use a lot of of barre shapes though, so for my style, a nice low action would go a long way.

If the guitar buzzes though, it's essentially broken.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

The bridge appears a little high to me as well. ....I'm thinking that if the fretted note is sharp, then that must mean that the distance from the fret to the bridge is shorter than from the fret to the nut, which would need adjustment at the bridge.

I was thinking that if I shave the bottom of the bridge, I think that should fix some of that, because fretting from the fret to the bridge would be a diagonal line, whereas left alone it goes straight to the bridge, which means it would be shorter.

So, lowering the bridge, would logically make the distance from the fret on the neck to the bridge, more similar to the spot over the fret on the open string to the bridge.

Please, please, please, learn and use the correct names for the various components on the guitar ... what you are erroneously referring to as the *bridge*is correctly termed the *saddle*

The bridge is the big lump of wood glued to the soundboard ... the saddle is the white thing sitting in the slot in the bridge, across which the strings are stretched.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

The bridge appears a little high to me as well..

It's all good, the rest of us understand what you are saying.

Bruces comments above are pretty spot on, if you keep lowering nut or saddle you will eventually fail, their is an exact figure and it's subjective to the guitar and player.

If you have never completed a setup, I would encourage you to contact a local luthier and see if they offer setup courses.

In my locality, I often teach others how to do a setup, I personally charge double my normal setup fee, simply because it takes a lot longer guiding a person step by step through the process.

I guarantee it will be money well spent, if you cannot afford it, then drop a hint to a family member or friend to get you a setup gift voucher as a birthday present.

Steve

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I recently changed the nut, and I think it is still a little high. The bridge appears a little high to me as well. The action at the first fret is a little high, and up over the 14th as well.

If the nut is high, the action will feel stiff all over the neck, and fretted notes near the nut will play sharp. In my experience, the nut is the one adjustment that is most commonly botched by do-it-yourselfers. This requires a graduated set of nut files (which most DIYers don't have). It's best to use a file that's around .003" wider than the string. The depth and angle of the nut slots is very critical, and must be done with precision. Margin of error is only a couple thousandths of an inch. Leave it a little too high, and the action feels stiff and intonation suffers. Cut it too low and the open strings buzz.

When evaluating saddle height, (with the rod adjusted properly) I measure at the 13th fret while fretting (or capoing) the first fret. For the average player, a good setup is 3/32" on the low E and a little over 1/16" on the high E.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Please, please, please, learn and use the correct names for the various components on the guitar ... what you are erroneously referring to as the *bridge*is correctly termed the *saddle*

The bridge is the big lump of wood glued to the soundboard ... the saddle is the white thing sitting in the slot in the bridge, across which the strings are stretched.

Lol oops, ya, I actually knew that.