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  #16  
Old 10-03-2015, 10:19 AM
HikariGuitars HikariGuitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
"... I've come to wonder how much difference in energy transmission a larger saddle would actually make. Has someone here experimented with that?"

The actual forces the string exerts on top of the saddle are well defined and limited as compared with the tension on the strings. The force is limited by how hard you can push the string down before it bottoms out on the frets, and how close the the bridge you play: it would take a VERY hard pluck close to the bridge for the up and down force to amount to as much as 5% of the string tension at the maximum excursion. The 'tension change' signal runs to about 15% of the up and down force on average, so less than 10% of the static tension. There are a couple of other signals too, but they're really small.

Given , then, that the largest force the saddle is called on to transmit is, say, about + and - one pound or so (an overall amplitude of 2#, or, say, 1 kg), how big does the saddle have to be to do that without bending? If there's a difference in the sound with a wider saddle, maybe it's not in the sound transmission, assuming the saddle is well seated.

A bone saddle has some mass: a more or less 'normal' one seems to come in at about 2 gm, and an especially thick and tall one is more like 4 gm. I know that a change in mass at the bridge of 2 gm can make an audible difference in the sound in some cases.

A saddle that's loose in the slot might well reduce the amount of the 'tension' signal that's transmitted, or act as a filter for some frequencies. This would alter the tone.

Sometimes you need more compensation at the saddle than a narrow one allows.

Having done experiments to answer similar questions, I know one thing: finding an answer to your question would entail a lot of work. At the moment it seems to me that other explanations are more likely than 'enhanced sound transmission', but without actual data....
Again Mr. Alan Carruth, thank you very much about all the information you have given.Your insight on guitar building can only inspire me more and more to study and go as deep as I can on this science.

I ended up deciding to try this bracing pattern on my next project which will probably start next week (depending on my teacher's work shop availability).

I'll be uploading images and using all the information and help that were given in this topic.

Once again, thank you very much.
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Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-03-2015 at 10:30 AM. Reason: adding information
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  #17  
Old 10-03-2015, 02:42 PM
Halcyon/Tinker Halcyon/Tinker is offline
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I seem to say this a lot, but...

I think that the Gore/Gilet books would answer an awful lot of your questions. A lot of guys don't want to buy them cause it's not as sexy as a new set of wood, but the information contained therein will benefit you more than the cost of wood for one guitar, and will greatly enhance your ability to use the next set of wood a lot better. As well, you don't need to be in the shop to use them. You can enhance your knowledge on coffee break.

I also think it's in your best interest to use the most economical woods that you can until your understanding of the process and woodworking skills increases. Maybe Braz is cheap in your town, I don't know...
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  #18  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:00 PM
HikariGuitars HikariGuitars is offline
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Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker View Post
I seem to say this a lot, but...

I think that the Gore/Gilet books would answer an awful lot of your questions. A lot of guys don't want to buy them cause it's not as sexy as a new set of wood, but the information contained therein will benefit you more than the cost of wood for one guitar, and will greatly enhance your ability to use the next set of wood a lot better. As well, you don't need to be in the shop to use them. You can enhance your knowledge on coffee break.

I also think it's in your best interest to use the most economical woods that you can until your understanding of the process and woodworking skills increases. Maybe Braz is cheap in your town, I don't know...

Aye sir! Thank you very much for the information! I didn't know Trevor Gore had books!

I'll definitely try to buy one of his books (if I find them). I searched and searched for Ervin's books in any book store of Brazil but I couldn't find (nor in shelves in my town nor online). Hopefully, I'll have more luck with Gore/gilet books.

Sadly, some of the "sweet" stuff don't come to Brazil, such as Luthier books ( they are rare up to nonexistent here). Therefore, my knowledge (and the knowledge of most guitar builders here), is basically on experiences transmitted from teacher to student and empirical tests.

Regarding my wood choice, I have been slowly saving up to buy them and stock them. That being said, BRW isn't cheap here either. Nor is Adirondack (since it comes from US and in Brazil we don't really have the culture of "steel string guitars". Most national music uses nylon string guitars, therefore, most luthiers here choose to specialize in that area.

Therefore, I'm the odd ball here. I love the sound of steel string guitars and I hardly like nylon. My teacher is specialized in nylon string guitars. Thus, his knowledge is usually limited to how to build guitar and what he could get from his teacher/experience, so is mine.

I have a few plans for the future and hopefully from next year or in 2017 I can book a trip to US and there I'll try to find and buy all the books I can't find in Brazil.

Once again, thanks for the information about the new books.
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  #19  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:25 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by HikariGuitars View Post
I'll definitely try to buy one of his books (if I find them). I searched and searched for Ervin's books in any book store of Brazil but I couldn't find (nor in shelves in my town nor online).
Mr. Gore can speak for himself, but I believe his books are only available from him directly.

A while ago, I purchased Mr. Somogyi's books from Amazon.ca. They just happened to be about half the price of Amazon.com or other retailers.

Neither two-volume set is easy reading. Neither is inexpensive. Both dedicate the first volume to an explanation of how the instrument works and what things influence the type of sound produced. Mr. Gore's explanation is largely hard-core science and quantitative, though with summaries for those who don't want or need a lot of the mathematics; Mr. Somogyi's explanation is more qualitative and discusses more "philosophic" aspects of guitar making. Both dedicate the second volume to practical aspects of how to manufacture guitars. Mr. Gore's treatment is more "modern", while Mr. Somogyi's is more traditional.

Both are important contributions to guitar making literature. Neither would be my recommendation for a beginning guitar maker to learn the woodworking involved. I would recommend them for those who are well-versed in the mechanics of actual guitar making and are ready for increased insight into what to do to influence the sound of the instruments one makes.
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2015, 10:12 PM
Halcyon/Tinker Halcyon/Tinker is offline
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There truth to that for sure, yet they do touch very directly on exactly what he's been asking about. There are certainly easier 'how to' books out there, such as the Cumpiano/Natelson books. They'll take you a long way.

Kits are also a good way to start, and in fact you can get 'Irish' kits from KMG guitars. Not a bad place to start to get a median sense of thicknesses and such.

Hikari, Sitka is probably your cheapest option, especially if you buy low grade. There's no particular magic in adi. It has it's own characteristics, but it's not necessary, and in fact, for the same amount of money, you can usually find better quality Sitka.

Anyway, good luck in your journey. I guess the only other thing I'd say is maybe learn to build a normal 'traditional' guitar fairly well to your satisfaction before endeavoring to 'improve' upon it.
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  #21  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:01 AM
Sam VanLaningham Sam VanLaningham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker View Post
I seem to say this a lot, but...

I think that the Gore/Gilet books would answer an awful lot of your questions. A lot of guys don't want to buy them cause it's not as sexy as a new set of wood, but the information contained therein will benefit you more than the cost of wood for one guitar, and will greatly enhance your ability to use the next set of wood a lot better. As well, you don't need to be in the shop to use them. You can enhance your knowledge on coffee break.

I also think it's in your best interest to use the most economical woods that you can until your understanding of the process and woodworking skills increases. Maybe Braz is cheap in your town, I don't know...
Man, this rationale completely worked for me. Quite awhile ago I posted a bracing thread and I was pointed towards gore/gilet books but didn't want to spend the money. A friend recently sent me a check to build him a guitar and I was planning on buying wood. Alas, I just ordered these books and I'm pumped. Thanks for the trigger halcyon!

Sam
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:20 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
My adirondack/BRW had scalloped bracing and I felt that the bass was "eating" the mids and trebles. Also, the sound had a quick peak and "died" fast (it didn't have a good sustain). Last, but not least, I felt that the sound was a bit "muddy" or "cotton like" (I don't really know how to describe it properly).

Therefore, for my preferences, I found that scalloping isn't the way to go.
Those are characteristics of bracing that is scalloped too deep. This is in line with the misconception that 'more is better'.

On 14-fret dreadnoughts with forward-X bracing a red spruce top, I find the most balance when the bracing dimensions are as follows:
X-brace minimum = 5/16" to 3/8".
Tone bar minimum = 1/4" to 9/32".

X-braces are 0.325" wide by 0.625" tall.
Tone bars are 0.325" wide by 9/16" tall.

Brace height is very critical....much more so than top thickness or width of the braces.
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2015, 07:16 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
X-braces are 0.325" wide by 0.625" tall.
Tone bars are 0.325" wide by 9/16" tall.

Brace height is very critical....much more so than top thickness or width of the braces.
Since the brace height is so critical, John, then perhaps it would be better to express the tone bar height as a precise 0.5625" rather than 9/16" ...
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2015, 07:39 AM
HikariGuitars HikariGuitars is offline
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Sorry, I've been caught up on some serious family issue (one of relatives got arrested and I had to deal with all the paper work).

That aside, I already thank you all very much for the collaboration on this thread!

Now into the topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Mr. Gore can speak for himself, but I believe his books are only available from him directly.

A while ago, I purchased Mr. Somogyi's books from Amazon.ca. They just happened to be about half the price of Amazon.com or other retailers.

Neither two-volume set is easy reading. Neither is inexpensive. Both dedicate the first volume to an explanation of how the instrument works and what things influence the type of sound produced. Mr. Gore's explanation is largely hard-core science and quantitative, though with summaries for those who don't want or need a lot of the mathematics; Mr. Somogyi's explanation is more qualitative and discusses more "philosophic" aspects of guitar making. Both dedicate the second volume to practical aspects of how to manufacture guitars. Mr. Gore's treatment is more "modern", while Mr. Somogyi's is more traditional.

Both are important contributions to guitar making literature. Neither would be my recommendation for a beginning guitar maker to learn the woodworking involved. I would recommend them for those who are well-versed in the mechanics of actual guitar making and are ready for increased insight into what to do to influence the sound of the instruments one makes.
I indeed know that somogyi's book aren't cheap (around 250$ each?), I also presumed it wouldn't be an easy read, but at least it can help me improve my english further and my guitar making skills.


I'll check amazon.ca and see if they ship to Brazil, if they do, I'll see if I can purchase them! However, considering the dollar ratio to my currency at the moment I doubt It'll be any close to affordable (1$= 4 R$ [my currency])

The "how to" (wood working) I can learn from my teacher. My biggest problem is knowing and "predicting" the consequences of every choice I make on the guitar, thus, I think somogyi's and (?) Gore/Gilet books could give me these answers.

Hopefully I can get them somehow. Yesterday I went to 3 different malls and looked over into all libraries that were available at them and I couldn't even find a citation of Somogyi's nor Gore's book. -Sobs-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker View Post
There truth to that for sure, yet they do touch very directly on exactly what he's been asking about. There are certainly easier 'how to' books out there, such as the Cumpiano/Natelson books. They'll take you a long way.

Kits are also a good way to start, and in fact you can get 'Irish' kits from KMG guitars. Not a bad place to start to get a median sense of thicknesses and such.

Hikari, Sitka is probably your cheapest option, especially if you buy low grade. There's no particular magic in adi. It has it's own characteristics, but it's not necessary, and in fact, for the same amount of money, you can usually find better quality Sitka.

Anyway, good luck in your journey. I guess the only other thing I'd say is maybe learn to build a normal 'traditional' guitar fairly well to your satisfaction before endeavoring to 'improve' upon it.

As I stated before, the "how to make" or rather,wood work and assembling I can learn from my teacher, who's really well versed on nylon guitars (he doesn't know his science but he builds pretty awesome nylon string guitars from his experience).

Regarding Kits, it's very unlikely that I can get one for a decent price here in Brazil. Cheapest Kit I can find is one from martin and it's for 2400 reais (or 600$). With that money I can pretty much make a premium guitar. I payed 150 reais for my adirondack top (supposedly Master Grade) I pay around 800 reais for legalized BRW back and sides (ronay.com.br), 50 reais for mahogany (neck, head, and structure), 100 reais for ebony finger board, 30 reais for ebony bridge, around 50 reais for a two way trust rod, 60 reais for 1.2m for frets and around 200 reais for quality tuning keys (with tune lock), around 100 reais for german spruce wood for bracing (couldn't find adirondack), totaling 1540 reais or 385 $ (but plaese, bear in mind that earning 1 real is a lot harder than earning 1$ - hourly minimum wage here is around 3,28 reais or 0.82 dollars).

I'd love to try sitka on one of my future projects! It's just that I already own an adirondack top ready to use. I actually snatched the last adirondack top my provider had that could be used for an OM guitar (all the other pieces can only be used for classical guitar tops or parlor size), and I got a it really cheap! It was actually cheaper than a master grade sitka top (adirondack isn't particularly popular here)!

However, using low grade wood for top isn't something I wanna do. it might be expensive to test with quality tops and I might actually be "screwing up" good wood but I really wanna hear the full potential of the work I'm doing - even if it's amateur and mediocre.


Since this guitar will be my own guitar, I wanna try to make it as good as I can (the other 2 guitars I made my teacher sold it under his name - since he supervised me and basically did half of the work. Also, since he wasn't charging for his classes and provided most the material and all the tools I think it'd be only fair).

Also, my teacher allowed me to choose the B/S woods from his personal stock for this guitar (because it'll be mine)!Therefore, I'll have no expanse on these woods. So I'll be posting pictures of the set of wood once I go to his work shop!

Regarding last paragraph, thank you very much for the encouragement, and I'll certainly try my best. I'll discuss the bracing pattern with my teacher and see what he thinks (he's an old folk so he'll probably go along with a more "traditionalist" vision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
Those are characteristics of bracing that is scalloped too deep. This is in line with the misconception that 'more is better'.

On 14-fret dreadnoughts with forward-X bracing a red spruce top, I find the most balance when the bracing dimensions are as follows:
X-brace minimum = 5/16" to 3/8".
Tone bar minimum = 1/4" to 9/32".

X-braces are 0.325" wide by 0.625" tall.
Tone bars are 0.325" wide by 9/16" tall.

Brace height is very critical....much more so than top thickness or width of the braces.
Hello John Arnald,

It's incredibly pleasant to have someone of your caliber sharing information regarding his build methods and bracing choices! Thank you very much for all that precise information!

Regarding the scalloping being too deep, it probably happened due to my teacher's experience with nylon string guitars (he exclusively build them since he started learning how to build guitars), they are usually very low in height. Therefore, since he was supervising what I was doing, there's a high probability that he thought as a "nylon string maker".

Into the measures that you kindly shared with us, would that same logic work for a finger style OM ? (I'm not really into dreadnoughts)

Thank you very much all and once I have the chance I'll be taking pictures of all the sets of wood I have to use and I'll be eager to hear what you guys think about it!

EDIT: After John Arnold said I'd need a similar bracing pattern as lowden/mcpherson to achieve a similar tone, I made this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbsehz3yjr...12812.jpg?dl=0

it's very similar to Lowden bracing pattern, however, it doesn't cut up the bridge plate, allowing bridge pins and spreading the string tension in a different angle. Any thoughts on this? Also, about thickness of the braces or so.
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Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-04-2015 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Added picture.
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:18 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HikariGuitars View Post
I'll check amazon.ca and see if they ship to Brazil, if they do, I'll see if I can purchase them! However, considering the dollar ratio to my currency at the moment I doubt It'll be any close to affordable (1$= 4 R$ [my currency])
It appears they aren't currently cheaper on amazon.ca than .com. The difference in currency might matter, however.

Quote:
The "how to" (wood working) I can learn from my teacher.
Out of curiosity, what method does your teacher use to attach necks to bodies?



Quote:
My biggest problem is knowing and "predicting" the consequences of every choice I make on the guitar
That is the tricky part.
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  #26  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:23 AM
HikariGuitars HikariGuitars is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Out of curiosity, what method does your teacher use to attach necks to bodies?

In portuguese it's called rabo de andorinha, I think it's something like dove neck (?). He carves a Squared "V" on the neck and a negative version of it on the body and attach it. He usually leave the guitar stringed without glue for a few days playing to see if the guitar is enough stabilized before glueing.

If I have the opportunity I'll take pictures when I go to his work shop if he's working on a guitar.

Edit: it's called Dovetail neck joint. But he uses a slightly modified version. I think it's a little bit narrower and it goes a bit deeper on the wood block.
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Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-04-2015 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Did a google search.
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:41 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HikariGuitars View Post
it's called Dovetail neck joint.
Thanks. That is an appropriate option for a steel string guitar.

Later, you might want to consider bolt-on arrangements that allow for changing the neck angle as necessary. Nylon string guitars rarely require neck resets, but steel string guitars often do.
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