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  #16  
Old 03-06-2018, 10:27 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
....Classical position. This is more comfortable and I do use this position occasionally, but a foot stool isn't always available so would like to get more comfortable with the causal position.....
Since you play a 14 fret dreadnought style guitar, the "casual" position may be better suited for easier fretting hand access, particularly the lower frets.
But, for the heck of it, the next time you're sitting on the sofa, try the classical position with your back parallel to the back of the sofa (no 45deg tilt), and don't use a foot stool (which would raise your leg too high anyway). Just prop your right foot onto the left for a slight lift. That's enough to rest the guitar comfortably. It should anyway. (I never use a foot stool). Also, the 45 deg tilt you speak of probably torques your back muscles more than they need to. If you keep back straight and parallel, and face outward as the sofa does, you'll also be mimicking the position you have sitting on a stool.
I like the idea of crossing the right leg over the left (a la Paco de Lucia and Bert Jansch) for stability, but it tires my right knee (and ankle) too quickly. Probably more a young person's position, so YMMV!.
Just a few thoughts.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2018, 10:33 AM
beninma beninma is offline
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Everyone is different but all these various tricks like crossing legs are all just hacks to avoid using the strap to stabilize the guitar. They all involve twisting some joint into a position that is not natural to hold for a long time, and they often also raise the guitar, causing strain on the strumming/picking side shoulder.

I really struggled with this, I've only been playing about 3 years, and just committing to using the strap all the time was the answer for me. My instructor didn't really flat out tell me I needed to do this but he did really encourage it and he does it as well. If I don't have a proper height chair/stool available I stand rather than sitting with poor posture.

At home I have a 40" stool so I'm almost in a standing type position and I use the strap. It lets my shoulders relax.

I see a lot of people playing with terrible posture. Maybe it doesn't bother them but it definitely bugs me.

Using the strap all the time and getting it adjusted right really helped with the transition to being able to play standing or sitting too. A year ago I couldn't play standing, now I am probably more comfortable and play better standing. It's been a great benefit.

I can get by playing on a lot of kitchen table chairs, they seem to be high enough for me to play. But not all. Sometimes I can do something like sit on a coffee table or something like that if it's high enough. But I have yet to see a single couch that was tall enough for me to sit with decent posture. (I'm 6'1", if you're shorter it might be fine) A lot of shorter couches/chairs are uncomfortable for me period even ignoring playing guitar.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2018, 11:05 AM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
Since you play a 14 fret dreadnought style guitar, the "casual" position may be better suited for easier fretting hand access, particularly the lower frets.
Yes. With the classical style, the head stock is further away. But I like the classical style because it gives another point of support at the bout over the right leg, (in addition to the waist over the left) so that the guitar does not teeter. So, that's why I like the left over right, because I get more guitar support at the bottom, and the head stock isn't as further away.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
Also, the 45 deg tilt you speak of probably torques your back muscles more than they need to.
I probably gave a bad image of this in my original post. It's not that my back is tilted in relation to my legs. I'm just seats at an angle (my legs coming out at an anlge from the cushion). This is so that I get that bout support on the cushion.




And to those that suggested using a strap seated... probably a good practice. I will have to experiment with this as well.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2018, 11:40 AM
DukeX DukeX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
The classical position is ideal for fingerstyle, but not so good for strumming. It's also awkward with large dreadnought-style bodies.
I fingerpick, strum, and flatpick all guitars, including electrics, in the classical position with no problems whatsoever.
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  #20  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:26 PM
GBS GBS is offline
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Buy a couple of these:
https://www.amazon.com/HandStands-Je..._&dpSrc=detail

Silicon pads - I put one where my arm crosses the bout, so the guitar won't slip under my arm. Sometimes one on the bottom, so it won't slip on my leg. Pad is completely removable and reuseable. Has no glue or anything that will transfer to the guitar. Has NO effect on finish. If it loses its "stick", wash with soap and water, and air dry. The only negative - if I forget to take it off before putting the guitar in the case, it can get peeled up, and may tear.
Saw Leo in concert using something like it, and was sold!
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  #21  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:47 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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I made this video a little while ago for a similar thread :
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  #22  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:29 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
I made this video a little while ago for a similar thread :



Shoulder discomfort isn’t what led me to ask this question but informative nonetheless. Thank you.
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  #23  
Old 03-07-2018, 11:43 AM
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SprintBob SprintBob is offline
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Discovering the NeckUp was the best thing that happened to me in improving my seated ergonomics. It keeps both feet on the ground, maintains upright posture, and for me eliminates any shoulder or back issues. AGF’er Eric Skye is a big fan of it also. De Oro makes something similar a lot of players like also.
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  #24  
Old 03-07-2018, 02:02 PM
jfitz81 jfitz81 is offline
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I play in what we're calling "casual position" almost 100% of the time and haven't found stability issues. I'll sometimes use a strap while seated, but don't find that it changes things much if I'm already in a comfortable position. So this may be helpful and it might not.

1. My right arm rests on the lower bout, but I don't really feel it pushing the bout downward--it's more like it's hugging the guitar to my hip or straight down to where it's anchored on my leg.

2. Does the bout drop when you let go with your fretting hand? For me, the guitar doesn't move. My left arm isn't really applying any force to the neck at all, it's just holding up my hand. If the guitar moves when you let go, it makes me wonder if you're not inadvertently pushing or pulling the neck with your left arm.

Just my own thoughts, hope they're helpful!
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  #25  
Old 03-07-2018, 07:32 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfitz81 View Post

1. My right arm rests on the lower bout, but I don't really feel it pushing the bout downward--it's more like it's hugging the guitar to my hip or straight down to where it's anchored on my leg.
But the point where the arm rests isn’t directly above where the waist sit on your lap, is it? So if you let your arm drop doesn’t it push the guitar down and around your body?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfitz81 View Post

2. Does the bout drop when you let go with your fretting hand? For me, the guitar doesn't move. My left arm isn't really applying any force to the neck at all, it's just holding up my hand. If the guitar moves when you let go, it makes me wonder if you're not inadvertently pushing or pulling the neck with your left arm.
When I let go of my fretting hand, the headstock springs forward a bit because of that backward pressure from the arm pushing the bout back. So, yeah, I can manage to play in the casual position but I would have to be mindful of the amount of pressure exerted on the various contact points to keep the guitar steady.

On the couch (where I can rest the bout on the sofa) or in the left over right leg position, it feels more secure because there isn’t the one pivot point (waist on the right lap only) where the guitar can swing about.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:36 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
But the point where the arm rests isn’t directly above where the waist sit on your lap, is it? So if you let your arm drop doesn’t it push the guitar down and around your body?




When I let go of my fretting hand, the headstock springs forward a bit because of that backward pressure from the arm pushing the bout back. So, yeah, I can manage to play in the casual position but I would have to be mindful of the amount of pressure exerted on the various contact points to keep the guitar steady.
This is what I meant by the pushing angle I mentioned earlier.
I agree the above is what happens if you use a "lazy" right arm position - let the neck go, and the arm's weight will tend to push that end of the guitar down and back, so the neck moves forward or up.

So - obviously - I don't let the right arm do that. In my habitual right leg (crossed over left) position - which I regard as somewhat lazy, if not as lazy as the "casual" position - I secure the guitar with my right arm without my left holding the neck. The crook of my right elbow is on the front edge of the bout, around 45 degrees across from the bridge - i.e. around half-way between the widest part of the bout and the strap button. A light pressure (towards where the guitar sits on my thigh) is all that's required to hold the guitar steady, and my fingers easily reach over the soundhole.

There are disadvantages, however. Firstly, in its most secure position, the neck is a little far forward for comfort. The guitar's waist is not flat on my right thigh, but angled forward. Secondly, if I want to rest my wrist on the bridge to damp the bass, I need to raise my elbow off the guitar, so the right arm pressure required to keep the guitar steady comes from the right wrist on the bridge - not ideal!

I have found one alternative right leg position which feels both more secure and more adaptable - but is often a little impractical. Seated on a normal chair, uncrossed legs, if I rest my right foot on something quite high - at least a foot off the ground - then I can hold the guitar very firmly on my leg with the whole of my upper arm resting on the top side of the guitar: shoulder on the smaller bout, elbow on the wider one. Most of the pressure comes from the shoulder, in fact, which means the rest of the arm feels a little freer. The guitar is not moving anywhere in this position! Some of the more advanced fingerstyle pieces I know are a lot easier like this - the fret hand feels much freer. The only disadvantage is it looks a little weird, and finding something big and solid enough to rest the foot on is not always easy - another chair in front works well, but doesn't look great (in public). (Another disadvantage is that damping the strings on the bridge is a little more awkward.)

This feels much the same - in fact - as the position illustrated earlier, where the right leg is crossed so the ankle rests on the left knee. That also brings the right thigh high enough to hold the guitar under the right shoulder. (In the pics I posted, their shoulders are clearly not resting on the guitar, but I lean forward a little.) The bottom edge of the guitar is tucked right back in the groin so the face of the guitar (soundhole) points down somewhat. The fretboard is totally invisible in this position, of course, but the left hand position is ideal.
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Last edited by JonPR; 03-08-2018 at 04:44 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:48 AM
Llewlyn Llewlyn is offline
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I have been adopting plenty of different postures until I found my perfect one. I play an OM, fingerstyle only w/o nails. What I found is that with the casual position I have cramps on my right hand wrist. The classical position w a footstool cramps back even though I keep it straight, because of the leg asymmetry. Crossing my leg is awful because it blocks my blood circulation so my upper leg numbs after a while. The strap is a solution that kind of work for me, but I don't feel the guitar stable and don't want to add strap button on my guitars.

So eventually I found this, which is an improved (and significantly more expensive) version of the NeckUP:

http://www.sagework.org/overview/Int...ion/index.html

That for me WORKS. I feel my body, I am symmetrical, I play relaxed. I find the device quite good so I recommend it, although I am pretty sure one can achieve the same results with similar devices.

Ll.
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  #28  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:34 PM
jfitz81 jfitz81 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyRacc00n View Post
But the point where the arm rests isn’t directly above where the waist sit on your lap, is it? So if you let your arm drop doesn’t it push the guitar down and around your body?
No, it's pushing it down diagonally, more or less, to where it's resting on my right leg. Kinda counterbalancing the weight of everything to the left of where it's sitting on my leg. JonPR's description was a good one. My arm is bent about where the "corner" of the lower bout would be if it were square. I keep my right hand between the bridge and soundhole, but getting right above the soundhole is manageable and doesn't seem to affect stability.
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:14 PM
RockyRacc00n RockyRacc00n is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfitz81 View Post
No, it's pushing it down diagonally, more or less, to where it's resting on my right leg. Kinda counterbalancing the weight of everything to the left of where it's sitting on my leg. JonPR's description was a good one. My arm is bent about where the "corner" of the lower bout would be if it were square. I keep my right hand between the bridge and soundhole, but getting right above the soundhole is manageable and doesn't seem to affect stability.


I’m 5’6” so my arms are probably shorter than you guys so the placement of my arm probably does not reach that “corner” and probably not able to exert as much cross force. And there is probably more downward and backward force exerted by my arm causing the headstock to spring forward more readily when in causal position.

I think for now, I am going to keep trying the left leg over right, which gives several benefits for me

1) raised headstock
2) guitar body closer to the center rather than off to the right which eliminates the guitar wanting to rotate around my body
3) two points of contact on my lap which eliminates the teetering.

I just learned how to post pictures so here is how it looks.



I was able to play in this position for like 10 minutes during one stretch of practice and didn’t feel circulation getting cut off so I think this will be ok.

Anyway, thanks all for engaging in what might have been a tedious read. It helped me to consider few things.
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:15 PM
jfitz81 jfitz81 is offline
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Glad you were able to figure something out!

[FWIW, I'm the same height, so I wouldn't think arm length plays much of a factor. Only difference I can think of is that I keep the neck pretty much parallel to the floor, and I have the plane of the strings about perpendicular with the floor. Those angles might change how the guitar is being "pushed" down?]
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