WHY are Mandolin necks so narrow?

[richb]

I am a guitar player thinking about playing a little mandolin. Like so many others, I would prefer as wide a neck as possible to accommodate these "tree-stumps" I call fingers. So I have done a lot of research and it looks like a nut width of 1 3/16" or 1 1/4" will be about as wide as a mando neck will come. However, I see TONS of posts from guys just like me who are looking for wide (wider than 1 1/4") necks. So my question is, WHY are Mandolin necks so narrow? I claim complete ignorance on the build requirements of a mando, but I can't understand why the market isn't bearing a wider neck. I saw some photo's of a "Capek" mando made for Radim Zenkl that had a great, wide neck, but of course, it's custom made and I'm sure it's way out of my price range. If anyone can take a minute to educate me on mado necks and point me in the direction of a WIDE mando neck manufacturer, that wont cost more than $700.00, I would appreciate it. Thanks

[kydave]

Originally Posted by richb

I am a guitar player thinking about playing a little mandolin. Like so many others, I would prefer as wide a neck as possible to accommodate these "tree-stumps" I call fingers. So I have done a lot of research and it looks like a nut width of 1 3/16" or 1 1/4" will be about as wide as a mando neck will come. However, I see TONS of posts from guys just like me who are looking for wide (wider than 1 1/4") necks. So my question is, WHY are Mandolin necks so narrow? I claim complete ignorance on the build requirements of a mando, but I can't understand why the market isn't bearing a wider neck. I saw some photo's of a "Capek" mando made for Radim Zenkl that had a great, wide neck, but of course, it's custom made and I'm sure it's way out of my price range. If anyone can take a minute to educate me on mado necks and point me in the direction of a WIDE mando neck manufacturer, that wont cost more than $700.00, I would appreciate it. Thanks

Lots of big guys with chubby fingers have played mandolin for years.

Look at violins. People of ALL sizes have been playing those tiny neck things for centuries.

Just get it out of your head that it is your finger size that matters & you'll do fine.

[richb]

KYDAVE, I appreciate the optimism, and I am fairly nimble on the guitar, but I do have a sincere interest in having the logic explained to me. Thanks.

[philjs]

My guess is that it's as wide as it needs to be, no more and no less. Before you think this is facetious, think about the issues: the pairs of strings need to be far enough apart to not hit each other and buzz when hit hard YET they need to be close enough together that the player can fret both strings easily. Further, courses have to be far enough apart that the player doesn't fret two courses easily! The balance between intra- and inter- course distances is a fine line...and depends on string gauges as well as hand size.

I have a bouzar (a 23" scale tenor guitar with 4 courses of unison strings, ie. it masquerades as an Irish bouzouki, tuned GDAD or similar) that has a 1.47" nut width. I'm discussing a larger, lower tuned instrument (will be 25.5" scale and be tuned CGDG or DAEA or similar) with my luthier now and we're looking at a 1.58" to 1.61" nut width due to the needed string gauges. For some insight into the issues, try looking up "mandocello string spacing" on Mandolin Cafe. There you'll find a bunch of people who have Eastman mandocellos that all have a common complaint: the courses are too far apart.

Some mandolin builders DO build with wider necks (1.1875 to 1.25") including Breedlove, Weber and Mid-Missouri (now Big Muddy), to name a few.

Phil

[svea]

Being a guitarist who got into mandolin late in life, I may be able to shed a little light on why mandolin necks are what they are. The common nut width for a Gibson or a Collings mandolin is about 1 1/8". Collings considers 1 3/16" to be a wide nut. I bought the wide nut version thinking that since I was coming from guitar playing, it would be easier. Well, actually that is not exactly true. While I find that the Collings with the wide nut works just fine for most tunes, there are some fingerings and chords that would actually benefit from being able to span two string courses with one finger. So, in hindsight I probably would have just gotten the standard nut version had I known that. It's not really that big of a deal, though.

Also, the way you grasp a mandolin neck is similar to how you would grasp a violin. The pad of the thumb should rest along one edge, and there is a different angle of the fingers than with grasping a guitar neck. Mike Marshall's hands are huge and he does fine. But ultimately what works for others may not work for you, and I don't know of any stock mandolins with really wide necks.

Svea

Svea

[HHP]

Might check your left hand technique. On mandolin, your fingers should point more down than across. This makes the neck width less of an issue.

[richb]

Good insight everyone. Thanks. Also, some of you pointed out the proper way to hold a mando, which I never considered. I'm not obsessed with the "My fingers are too big" frame of mind, as I too have seen plenty of big boys play a mando, it's just more of an observation and my ignorance of the instrument. BUT, I am learning!! Thanks again!

[Doubleneck]

I have a Godin Inuk which is a Guitar Mandolin on steroids. It to has a very narrow nut and no question you have to have a narrow spacing to be able to finger a group of two double course strings with just one finger as you have to do at times. I think its that simple.
Steve

[44Runner]

At first Mando feels impossibly small. I get it. Once you get going and learn your fingerings it really takes no time and you are banging away and that tight fret board is no longer a concern. It actually can aid you in ways as there are plenty of chords where you are basically stacking fingertips so it seems the shapes and position are learned faster.

I play an Epiphone MM-50 and can't say enough wonderful things about it. Great playing and sounding instrument.

[Mtn Man]

Our friend Duane Compton is one of the best mandolin players we know, and he has some of the biggest, gnarliest hands I’ve ever seen. He also appears to have broken some fingers along the way. Here’s some good video of him playing with Amber Collins, with a close up of his hands. I don’t know how he’s able to get such a clear tone with those tree stumps but he does.



As to why the neck is so small, it’s because the mandolin is designed for mandolin players, not guitar players. Seriously though, if you’re going to play mandolin you need to approach it like a mandolin player, not a guitar player. It’s not just a little miniature guitar with funny tuning, it’s its own instrument. I do think guitar players have a distinct advantage when switching to mandolin. Once you get used to it, you’ll find that the neck is a lot easier to get around on...and you'll start wondering why guitar necks are so doggone big.

[bohemian]

I have played mandolin off and on for a few years, I have owned over 50.
These have included Gibsons of several years starting with 1915, and over the years the nut widths decreased to a point of unplayability.

I played a friends 19078 Gibson with a 1 1/4" nut. Gibson himself made this. When they went corporate in 1906-1908.. the changes began.. not unlike Martin with guitar nut widths dropping, notably in 1939.

I ordered 2 original Givens many years back specifying a wide nut. They both arrived with 1 1/16ths. Unplayable and sold.

Eastmans.. a few are very very good, and some have a real fret board with lots of frets and no scoops or abbreviated and cut off.. But they all suffer from NNS. Narrow Nut Syndrome. And as a consequence I can't play them and don't buy them.

Web(b)er has at least a 1 3/16ths stock which is on the border of almost playable.

Much like guitar finger pickers, wide nuts good, narrow nuts bad.

I have seen Radim play and he gets along fine with wide nuts.. Sam Bush model Gibson were originally wide nutted then it seems they shrank over the years.

Wider nuts mean better string spacing, wider string spacing means cleaner fretting.

I ordered 2 german made classical mandolins , both with 33 mm nuts . Excellent instruments and playbility was superb. Their standard nut width was 30mm.

No downside to wide, downside to narrow. Simple.

I believe Mid Mo offered a wide nut at 1 1/4". So someone gets it. And their instruments were "modestly" priced.

[fatt-dad]

pre-1921 Gibson a-models have 1-1/4 nut width.

I'm 6'-5" tall and have big hands and long fingers. For certain classical passages, I like the narrower nut. I typically go for the 1-3/16ths nut width though. I do play my wide-nut 1920 Gibson A3 though.

I play wide nut guitars too! Just never relate one to the other though. Too many other technique differences (for me at least).

f-d

[StratLes]

Originally Posted by Mtn Man

Our friend Duane Compton is one of the best mandolin players we know, and he has some of the biggest, gnarliest hands I’ve ever seen. He also appears to have broken some fingers along the way. Here’s some good video of him playing with Amber Collins, with a close up of his hands. I don’t know how he’s able to get such a clear tone with those tree stumps but he does.



As to why the neck is so small, it’s because the mandolin is designed for mandolin players, not guitar players. Seriously though, if you’re going to play mandolin you need to approach it like a mandolin player, not a guitar player. It’s not just a little miniature guitar with funny tuning, it’s its own instrument. I do think guitar players have a distinct advantage when switching to mandolin. Once you get used to it, you’ll find that the neck is a lot easier to get around on...and you'll start wondering why guitar necks are so doggone big.

Thats was awesome....Thanks !!

[Earl49]

I too have big hands and thick fingers. On occasion mandolin catches my interest, but I cannot get past that tiny neck. I inherited Dad's old Hondo A-style mandolin with the standard narrow neck, and it mostly hangs on the wall unplayed. If I ever got serious at all I would have to get a custom instrument built with a neck at least as wide as my tenor ukulele's. I happen to have played Radim's mandolin briefly at a camp a few years ago and found it comfortable to play what little I know on mandolin.

I happened to be watching a bluegrass band play recently, and I noticed the fiddlers play single-note melody lines. They are not trying to grab and hold chord shapes, so maybe the narrow neck is less of an issue for them.

Another option is to get a cheap concert uke, and switch around the string gauges to allow for mando tuning instead of uke tuning. I don't happen to have the details on the required string gauges handy, but it should not be rocket surgery to figure it out.

[K-vegas]

The first couple of weeks all I noticed was the tiny neck and small space between frets.

Seems normal to me now - wouldn't want it any wider. I have however, noticed that my guitar has a humongous neck