Tap tuning problems with a semi-acoustic flat guitar top.

[MR Obvious]

So I'm tryig to tap tune my first guitar top using the Roger H. Sminoff book method.
Problems I encontered:

1- The microphone picks up ambience noise and the tuner gives me false readings.

2- I changed from a microphone to a clip transducer but with no effect. The neighbors air conditioning unit pitch of D# was resonating on the wood surface, and again false readings.

3- I tried to hum pitch the wood sound and compare it to the buzz noise the strobe tuner has as an option on it's menu, but it is almost impossible to get the right pitch by ear.

4- I'm trying to tap tune by holding the piece on the top edge where I left an "ear" to grab into. I tried to clamp it to a guitar wood dummy but clamping dampened the sound.

5- I'm using a Peterson Strobe Tuner VS-2 and a behringer compressor sustainer CS400. I tried a Shure SM58 mic and a cheap chinese made clip transducer.

Anyone else had these problems?
Any sugestions on what can I do to get this right?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJqsyPnjY7k/


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[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by MR Obvious

. . .
Any sugestions on what can I do to get this right?

Only one - let it go.

The Martin Guitar Company has made more than two million good sounding guitrs without tap tuning anything, so it isn't strictly necessary.

And, building a first guitar is a daunting enough project that adding such a burden to it really isn't fair. So, do your best, have a good time, and, if you continue building, work out your own routines.

[redir]

I tend to agree that tap tuning is an exercise in futility. Tap 'listening' might be worth something though but really only on a finished box. If you keep doing it then you start to hear similar things from guitar to guitar and make some sense out of it. But the actual tuning part of it is sort of out there on a limb if you ask me.

[MR Obvious]

I think I will record the sounds of each part and later on try to clean the external noise with an editing software, Just to make a sense of it. But just that. I'm closing this case and finish my guitar this week. On my second attempt I will go back to those recordings and see if there is some similarity between both guitars.

Thanks to all who commented.

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[Howard Klepper]

Roger's methods are somewhat idiosyncratic. I'd suggest that you come back to them after building a few.

[funkymonk#9]

While i agree with the previous posts, would all of you consider perimeter sanding of the soundboard and the tapping that goes along with that to be somewhat more crucial for a first time builder?

[Sam VanLaningham]

Hello. I am one who got quantitative about tapping early on in my process. I've also measured resonant frequencies on about a dozen Preston Thompson guitars as well as my own Santa cruz's, martins, Taylor's etc.

There are definitely some things that a quantitatively oriented person can gleen from this and it's an enjoyable exercise if so inclined. However, what I've evolved to learn is that data are pretty much never a substitute for experience. So those newer to building etc still won't gain much skill in building a "better" guitar without having just built a ton and tapped quantitatively or not and bent (evaluating stiffness) all the wood that passes through the hands.

For what it's worth, I haven't measured tap tones on the last 2 builds. My focus is on the best joinery I can get and glueing stuff together without tension in the joints. That I'm learning is what makes a good guitar, and of course not overbuilding it.

As for noise in your tap tone signal: doesn't really matter. Spectrum analysis software identifies the main peaks, and tapping anywhere near a mic will be louder and more obvious on a graph than any ambient noise.

Sam

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by funkymonk#9

While i agree with the previous posts, would all of you consider perimeter sanding of the soundboard and the tapping that goes along with that to be somewhat more crucial for a first time builder?

No. For most first time builders, it is a woodworking project in which one is introduced to a variety of woodworking skills. These include working with thin materials, accurate joinery, the trials and tribulations of binding work, bending wood, fine finishing and so on. This is in addition to basic woodworking skills such as sharpening, planing, using scrapers... That's a lot to chew on for a first attempt without getting into the mysteries of tonal response and how to manipulate it.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

No. For most first time builders, it is a woodworking project in which one is introduced to a variety of woodworking skills. These include working with thin materials, accurate joinery, the trials and tribulations of binding work, bending wood, fine finishing and so on. This is in addition to basic woodworking skills such as sharpening, planing, using scrapers... That's a lot to chew on for a first attempt without getting into the mysteries of tonal response and how to manipulate it.

Tapping and listening and flexing are all relevant on some level, but until you learn to do the woodwork flawlessly, they won't give you much information that you can use.

[Ned Milburn]

For a first build, I'd suggest you build as close to spec as possible. And tap every little bit along the way. Then, you are COLLECTING empirical experience. After you've done that on several guitars, then the tones you are having will start to have meaning.

[peter.coombe]

Roger's methods are somewhat idiosyncratic.

Agreed. I would forget Roger Siminoff's tap tuning for the first guitar, and if you really want to get into this stuff later I would suggest getting Alan Curruth's DVD and also get the Gore/Gilet books for a different approach. The Gore/Gilet books are excellent.

[yellowesty]

Any idea where can I get the Gore/Gilet books?
I've contacted the folks in OZ and they don't have any copies left.
They say that more may be available someday.

[printer2]

I did something different for my first build, well almost everything different. Against common wisdom I used scrap and construction grade wood with a design of my own with more than one upturned eyebrow while I documented it on these pages. Against the odds the guitar sounded not bad. In my favor was the fact that I did build balsa RC airplanes at one time and I understood some of the construction methods. I also had a feel for light but strong structures and guessed at what I could get away with for a guitar.

My joints were not all perfect, had trouble with the binding, but in the end the thing stuck together and was more or less playable. Even with my past building experience there was a lot of learning to do. Did not know anything about tap tuning, know more about it now and still think I don't know anything about tap tuning. In that shaving this or that will get me here, or there.

I am on build number... ...well not sure. I start projects, others take their place, jump back and forth or do some in tandem. I would say between 4 and 10. I have ideas on building with regard for the properties of wood, doing deflection measurements, spectrum analyzing the impulse response of the top and back (or less heady sounding, tap tuning). So what am I doing for the next couple I am devoting my time to? Just building the darn things. I am with Left of Sam on where I want to go with these, build them well and something good will result.

If it is a guitar shape and not completely made of plywood it will surprisingly sound like a guitar. The fist few guitars I would say playability would be one of the main things to achieve. Doesn't matter what the sound if you have a buzz in one section unless you have the strings a mile off the fretboard. My first two guitars had issues at the neck-body interface, can anyone say hump. Will have to revisit them one day.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by yellowesty

Any idea where can I get the Gore/Gilet books?
I've contacted the folks in OZ and they don't have any copies left.
They say that more may be available someday.

Have them, lot of good information in them and I would have done better if I bought them right at the start of my building journey. As it is I just use them for bits and pieces of information.

There is a book I am interested in. While the G&G get into the math of what makes a guitar tick and building methods the following book does get there with a different path.

http://www.ukuleles.com/LBLBook/TOC.html

Not sure on the availability though.

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by yellowesty

Any idea where can I get the Gore/Gilet books?
I've contacted the folks in OZ and they don't have any copies left.
They say that more may be available someday.

Google my name along with "guitar". Should get you where you need to be.