First string not as loud when amplified

[JackH]

Hey guys. First, thanks to anyone who has helped me with my knowledge about setting up an acoustic guitar. I even bought a book on maintaining, repairing and setting up guitars by Dan Erlewine. I haven't done anything discussed in the book. I'm going to read it and get more info before actually doing anything I haven't already done to my acoustic. All I have done is buy a spare saddle from Ibanez in case I mess up the one in the guitar. I sent one of those to get a bone saddle made copying the stock saddle. I also bought a compensated tusq saddle. I have sanded these saddles (except the bone) to play with the action and adjusted the truss rod. This is a learning experience but now I've got the basic idea of this so far. Next is I need to play with intonation. But, that's not my problem right now. Just letting everyone know I'm a beginner.

Right now my problem is the first string sounds great when I play un-amplified. The volume is great on all strings. But when I plug into an amp the first string is not as loud. And the louder I turn it up the bigger the difference seems to be in the volume of the first string and all the rest. Initially, the problem was with the second string as well. But after sanding my first saddle flat that problem went away or was MUCH better at least. Right now I have the tusq saddle in the guitar and it is flat. I haven't done anything to the bottom of the slot in the bridge. With saddles I can remove them, sand them, mess them up and I can use another, buy another, etc. myself. If I start messing with the bridge, nut or anything attached more permanently to the guitar I can't fix a mistake easily if at all. Someone else would need to repair it. Of course that may be the best thing. But, I wouldn't learn anything.

What are the things that could cause just the first string to have less volume through an amp. From what little I know I'm thinking the saddle slot is not 100% flat or maybe the pickup has a problem. The pickup lays along the bottom of the saddle slot after coming up through a hole in the top of the slot. This is what came in the guitar.

PICKUP: Fishman Sonicore
EQUALIZER: Ibanez AEQ-SS Shape Shifter EQ

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Jack

[John Arnold]

UST's are very finicky, as you are finding out. I suspect the saddle is not as flat on the bottom as you think. I check them with a metal straightedge, holding it up to a strong light. You should not see any light between the saddle and the straightedge.
Sanding naturally tends to round the edges (even on a perfectly flat sanding surface), unless you are very careful. I like to put the saddle in a vise and file across the saddle first, creating a slight concave surface (low in the middle), Then sand just enough to make it perfectly flat.
I favor lowering all saddles from the top, which will eliminate this problem.

[JackH]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

UST's are very finicky, as you are finding out. I suspect the saddle is not as flat on the bottom as you think. I check them with a metal straightedge, holding it up to a strong light. You should not see any light between the saddle and the straightedge.
Sanding naturally tends to round the edges (even on a perfectly flat sanding surface), unless you are very careful. I like to put the saddle in a vise and file across the saddle first, creating a slight concave surface (low in the middle), Then sand just enough to make it perfectly flat.
I favor lowering all saddles from the top, which will eliminate this problem.

I'll check the saddle bottom again. Sanding the top in addition to lowering it would deal with the intonation also wouldn't it? That's an area I haven't dealt with but will be soon. I'm going to get a blank saddle or two and play with getting intonation set. I only have one acoustic so when experimenting with setting it up I'm taking a chance on making things worse. The saddles I have are already filed for intonation. But they aren't perfect on my guitar. I understand perfect intonation needs to be set with the guitar and not expected when buying compensated saddles like I've done. I think the bone saddle is pretty close though.

[Ned Milburn]

Sometimes when replacing a saddle with a new one, the old saddle was a banana shape on the bottom. Then, if replacing it with a correctly shaped new saddle, it will create troubles, since the UST ribbon or bar can compress over years in compliance with the saddle bottom.

A "dirty trick" is to add some putty (seriously little amount) to the bottom of the saddle, press it flat on wax or normal paper, cut the paper to the shape of the saddle bottom, then replace saddle and use. It can help you out of unusually tricky situations, and it can save the cost of buying a new UST (bar or ribbon type).

[JackH]

A minute ago I removed the tusq saddle and put in the bone saddle. The bone saddle came from Bob Colosi at guitarsaddles.com. I had sent him one of the Ibanez saddles I had as I assumed they were cut correctly regarding intonation. Now all strings are the same volume when using my amp. So I'm assuming the tusq saddle isn't 100% flat. But now I'm very happy.

Here's another thing I'm a bit unsure of regarding intonation. The intonation wasn't great earlier today. I put a new set of Martin Lifespan SP custom light strings on the guitar (.011-.052). I checked the intonation on the tusq saddle as with the Martin strings the intonation is great. Using my tuner (headstock) the open and 12th fret now produce the same note on each string. The intonation is still great with the bone saddle. So, the intonation seems to be good with the different gauge strings. I had a set of Elixir extra-light (.010-.047) strings on the guitar. The intonation on the 5th and 6th strings both had them sharp at the 12th fret. I could also hear they were out of tune when playing above the 6th or 7th fret. Now everything seems to be good. Intonation and individual string volume is fine.

Obviously, there's a lot of stuff about setting up an acoustic guitar I don't understand. Would probably take me 2 or 3 weeks to become an expert. Right now I'm just going to enjoy playing it.

[SolidSpruceTop]

Color the bottom of the saddle with a sharpie marker, than sand it on a flat file with an even grip and see how much of the marker gets sanded away. If it fades evenly, then you're all good. If not, keep sanding until the dark parts get sanded. Take note you'll probably need a shim if the action is perfect right now.

[JackH]

Originally Posted by SolidSpruceTop

Color the bottom of the saddle with a sharpie marker, than sand it on a flat file with an even grip and see how much of the marker gets sanded away. If it fades evenly, then you're all good. If not, keep sanding until the dark parts get sanded. Take note you'll probably need a shim if the action is perfect right now.

I did that with a sharpie. I had already sanded it to where the action is good. So I was hesitant to sand much more but I did need to sand a little bit becase there was a tiny bit of black marker left right at the end of the saddle at the high E end. I thought it was ok since the area not removed by sanding was not under the area where the string contacts the saddle. But maybe it isn't. I have two or three shims Bob sent me with the bone saddle. So I did have those to use if I did remove enough that it was way too low.

On one of the Ibanez saddles I removed enough material that the angle of the string BEHIND the saddle was not as drastic. I read before there needs to be enough of an angle that it causes more pressure on the saddle from the strings. But even with more material removed I was then able to add relief to the neck to remove any fret buzz. My understanding is you want to get the saddle at a height that the neck is as straight as possible. Then you add relief if needed to remove fret buzz. The amount of relief would be determined by the gauge strings and also how aggressively you hit (attack) the strings.

[SolidSpruceTop]

Originally Posted by JackH

becase there was a tiny bit of black marker left right at the end of the saddle at the high E end.

My understanding is you want to get the saddle at a height that the neck is as straight as possible. Then you add relief if needed to remove fret buzz. The amount of relief would be determined by the gauge strings and also how aggressively you hit (attack) the strings.

I'm not sure whether you want to put shims between the saddle and pickup, or pickup and soundboard. You'll have to try both yourself and see

Hold down the first and thirteenth frets and look at the space between the 7th fret and the string. It should be about the width of the high e string. As for action, it's a bit more personal, but make sure to hold down the first fret and measure at the 13th fret. A lot of people like 3/16" of space between the fret and low e string

[mirwa]

Check list for inconsistent volumes from under saddle pickup

Saddle Bottom Flat
Bridge recess flat
Side walls of bridge not pinching on saddle
Sides of saddle are also flat
Saddle not loose in slot (.5mm or greater side play)
Transducer ribbon is not damaged
Inadequate Break angle of strings over saddle

These are the most common issues, many other reasons exist as well.

Steve

[JackH]

Originally Posted by SolidSpruceTop

I'm not sure whether you want to put shims between the saddle and pickup, or pickup and soundboard. You'll have to try both yourself and see

Hold down the first and thirteenth frets and look at the space between the 7th fret and the string. It should be about the width of the high e string. As for action, it's a bit more personal, but make sure to hold down the first fret and measure at the 13th fret. A lot of people like 3/16" of space between the fret and low e string

Bob Colosi sells shim kits or individual shims. The shims are ebony of various lengths and thicknesses. The kits also include an exacto knife and super glue I think. Gluing and trimming ebony shims to the bottom of the saddle results in no tonal loss according to Bob.

I put a capo on the 1st fret to hold strings down. I used feeler gauges to get .67" (1.702mm) under the high E string at the 12th fret. I think this is about 3/32". Then I checked under the 6th string on the higher frets (13 - 20). The distance slowly gets greater. According to what I've read this indicates "fallaway" which is good.

I spent about 30 minutes getting these measurements, checking intonation at the 12th fret and playing some on the 7th-15th frets. According to what I've read the measurements are good or better than average. Using my tuner the intonation is great. But the most important thing is the guitar plays and sounds better than ever. I'm a hobby guitarist. I've performed a few times in my younger years and love it. But I've never been a professional musician. I have learned more about setting up a guitar in the past 10 months than ever before. Can't believe I struggled with high action on my acoustics all those years. I was even considering and even did a little shopping for a much nicer, more expensive guitar to get the playability and sound I now have out of my $500 Ibanez. Still may get a Martin, Taylor or something else later but the urgency is gone. My guitar now plays like a completely different instrument. I couldn't be happier I don't think. AND, I still have the 1 or 2 thousand I figured a much nicer guitar would cost me.

I have spent 6-8 months reading about and asking questions on forums about setting up an acoustic guitar. Then I played with saddle height and truss rod adjustment. Experimenting with these two adjustments has made a huge difference. Then changing from Elixir extra-light to Martin Custom light strings seems to have corrected the intonation problem I had. Don't really understand that but it's working so I don't plan to try and figure it out right now. Due to a low price ($3.50 per set) I got 10 sets of the Martin Lifespan strings on ebay. I assume they will all play as well as the first set I'm using now.

Thanks for all the help guys. I suggest anyone who is half-way decent with working with tools try the adjustments to their own guitar that doesn't involve the more complicated issues. Filing string slots in a new nut, fret work, etc. These jobs can result in repairs needed that require an experienced luthier. Another problem I have with working on the finer set-up tasks is needing specific tools. Spending one or two hundred dollars on tools I might only use once has always bugged me. Of course the alternative is that money going to the pro to do the work which is fine.

About buying tools you might only use once. I needed a drill bit many years ago that was very specific for the need and expensive. $40 (or close) for one drill bit sounds expensive. But you are not spending money on a drill bit. You are spending money to be able to create the hole you need. If I need a job done I'm either going to spend money to do it myself or pay someone else to do it. If I need my septic tank emptied I'll always pay someone else to do it. But working on my guitar or other things I care a lot about is a learning experience as well as fun and satisfying. That's how I look at it anyway.

Jack

[stormin1155]

Sometimes just lightly tapping the saddle will help it it seat better. And when I say lightly tapping, I mean lightly. Hard enough to crack an egg, but not much more than that.