ToneDexter 2 - initial thoughts and reviews

[MarkLauden]

Originally Posted by James May

This is not expected behavior. Training with a cable, then using it with a wireless link should sound identical and work perfectly. Training with a wireless link is not recommended due to the added latency of typical digital wireless systems. If it's an analog wireless system, there should be no issue.

Please contact us for additional support regarding this issue if you need it.

James is correct, of course. So, I think, is Shufflebeat. I've done a bunch of testing today...

I was thrown off by a couple of things. It appears that the wavemaps I made using the wireless connection worked OK right after I made them. But after I turned the wireless device off and on again, it wasn't good. Maybe different latency, or the device may be switching frequencies.

As to the use of cable-made wavemaps with a wireless connection, it seems much better than previously. My theory: I think there was some RF intererence when I was testing that config - this happens occasionally here. Or maybe just simple user error.

But I want to confirm what James said: cable-made works well with wireless. Wavemaps made with wireless yields unpredictable results that may range from OK to terrible. So there's no reason to make a wavemap with a wireless connection.

Thanks, James and Shufflebeat.

[Mobilemike]

Originally Posted by MarkLauden

I was thrown off by a couple of things. It appears that the wavemaps I made using the wireless connection worked OK right after I made them. But after I turned the wireless device off and on again, it wasn't good. Maybe different latency, or the device may be switching frequencies.

That still seems strange to me. Latency, or wireless frequencies, would affect the connection between the wireless transmitter and the wireless receiver, but once the signal leaves the wireless receiver and goes to the TDII it’s an analog audio signal and shouldn’t differ from a cable that much. RF interference may be a more likely culprit.

My TDII is due for delivery tomorrow and I’m very excited to dive in. It seems like an incredibly well thought out piece of gear.

[tadol]

I’ve been given a chance to see if I can break the beta of the 1.1 firmware update. I’m so excited I want to show a few screen shots of how it’s looking -

The photos don’t do the bright & very legible screen justice, but I haven’t figured out how to take better shots -

So - opening screen -


Top left knob rotates to adjust output level - press to access the output options menu, which includes adjustment for boost level, main & aux out levels, the boost config menu (which outs get boosted) and the routing options



Next under that is the Spaciousness knob, which adds a kind of openness or airiness quality, from 0 to 200% (std is 100). Pressing this knob takes you to the Tone Shaping screen -



This screen is amazing - the top left knob lets you start with Tone shaping - adjusting anti-feedback level, notch frequency, notch depth, notch width, and again, spaciousness. But rotate the top left knob, and it steps you through the eq options (low, mid, & high), each of which has its own set of adjustments -


This is the low eq adjustment, where you can raise the high pass level, and gain & frequency. This can be a shelf
or bell, and a width option is added for bell. Similar settings are available for mid and high. What’s particularly nice is the multi-color graphical displays you get with all adjustments - really fantastic!

Across the bottom of the screen are 3 more knobs - their basic function when rotated adjusts the level of low / mid / high with a graphical level indication for each, but when pressed, each jumps you straight to the adjustment screen for that setting - a press of the top right button (indicated on the screen with a very obvious “return” arrow) takes you right back to the main screen.

The top right knob rotates to adjust the instrument output level - pressing it brings you to an inputs menu to select an input source(s), as well as adjustments for the “dry” eq -



The lower right knob is the wavemap selection knob - rotating it scrolls through all the wavemap slots, pressing it brings you the wavemap edit screen, where you can rename, move, copy, delete, or revert wavemaps. Since wavemaps can be saved with eq, level, and routing specifics, this makes it easy to take a really good wavemap and save different versions for different outputs - going into different amps or a pa, for instance.



Sorry for the long post, but the more I play with this pedal, the more impressed and amazed I am at how well it works, and how good it sounds - I’ll be spending a bunch more time with it! (Forgot to mention the very fast & accurate color tuner, either strobe or bar!)

[Voxbox30]

Great you have a chance to field test (break) it. That will be great for everyone [emoji4] it’s still 6-8 weeks here in the UK for delivery from Thomann and Anderton’s aren’t even listing it.
At work as a broadcast audio hardware electronics engineer I used to break software products regularly by doing to them what I felt was intuitive to me. In other words try to make it work using sequences of operations the equipment wasn’t expecting. Good software testing should pick that up though.
I really hope you don’t find anything though. This is a terrific upgrade from the original as it has everything and more that I wanted in v1. MIDI, and programmability with more extensive EQ especially.
[emoji4]

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Voxbox30

At work as a broadcast audio hardware electronics engineer I used to break software products regularly by doing to them what I felt was intuitive to me. In other words try to make it work using sequences of operations the equipment wasn’t expecting.

As a side note, this is how all software should be tested. People use tools the way they use them, and not necessarily the way the tool designer intended.

[aschroeder]

Originally Posted by tadol

I’ve been given a chance to see if I can break the beta of the 1.1 firmware update. I’m so excited I want to show a few screen shots of how it’s looking -

The photos don’t do the bright & very legible screen justice, but I haven’t figured out how to take better shots -

Awesome. I can't wait to install the firmware update. One thing I was missing was the ability to see the toneshaping EQ wave. That feature will be frosting on the cake.

[tadol]

So far, the only thing I’ve been able to break was to try installing the firmware update from my iPad - whether it was using adapters from USB C to USB A to USB mini, or just iOS vs MacOS vs Windows OS, something didn’t happen right, but James was able to send me a file to recover it, and performing the update from my Mac worked flawlessly, so . .

But I know that I had been able to backup my wavemaps to my iPad, and I assume I could restore them, but maybe the code for updating firmware is a bit more technical. And I know I’d be working harder at trying to break things if I wasn’t enjoying just using it and playing / hearing my guitars through it!

[SpruceTop]

So, after experimenting with a few guitars and their pickup systems, and before posting any sound files of anything, let me say this: The Tonedexter II Rocks! Compared to the original ToneDexter, it's much easier to record and manipulate all the parameters of the WaveMap making process.

Using my usual Shure SM81 (Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina soon to enter my quest), I've WaveMapped a few guitars at various Mic locations and heard my Adamas 2087GT-8 (an Ovation Guitars product) as sounding the most balanced, articulate, and pleasing to my ears. So far, my Martin and Larrivee dreadnoughts always seem to end up with a hollowness to their WaveMapped tone, and this is regardless of mic position and distance from the guitar--but I'm still searching for the magic position. My experimentation is still progressing with several guitars and I'm enjoying my ToneDexter II WaveMap-tone-making trip. More to come ...

[phcorrigan]

I have had the original ToneDexter since late 2018 or early 2019, and there is no way I could justify upgrading, especially since I haven't been playing out recently. Based on these comments, however, I still want one!

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

So, after experimenting with a few guitars and their pickup systems, and before posting any sound files of anything, let me say this: The Tonedexter II Rocks! Compared to the original ToneDexter, it's much easier to record and manipulate all the parameters of the WaveMap making process.

Using my usual Shure SM81 (Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina soon to enter my quest), I've WaveMapped a few guitars at various Mic locations and heard my Adamas 2087GT-8 (an Ovation Guitars product) as sounding the most balanced, articulate, and pleasing to my ears. So far, my Martin and Larrivee dreadnoughts always seem to end up with a hollowness to their WaveMapped tone, and this is regardless of mic position and distance from the guitar--but I'm still searching for the magic position. My experimentation is still progressing with several guitars and I'm enjoying my ToneDexter II WaveMap-tone-making trip. More to come ...

Do you have a large diaphragm mic you could try? I think small diaphragms can be a little sterile sounding- which is awesome on acoustic with a full mix- but you may need to push a little more information to the TD.

That’s my next pursuit- I had good results with the Lewitt 040 (SDC) and I want to try some wavemaps with my Bluebird (LDC) to see if they sound a little fuller.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I've WaveMapped a few guitars at various Mic locations and heard my Adamas 2087GT-8 (an Ovation Guitars product) as sounding the most balanced, articulate, and pleasing to my ears.

That could well be the #1 red banner quote on the TD website. Ovation and Adamas were particular shudder-inducers for me for a long time. Beautiful to play, awful to amplify (other than finger picking, for which they were fantastic).

[/personal reflection]

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I've WaveMapped a few guitars at various Mic locations and heard my Adamas 2087GT-8 (an Ovation Guitars product) as sounding the most balanced, articulate, and pleasing to my ears. So far, my Martin and Larrivee dreadnoughts always seem to end up with a hollowness to their WaveMapped tone, and this is regardless of mic position and distance from the guitar--but I'm still searching for the magic position. My experimentation is still progressing with several guitars and I'm enjoying my ToneDexter II WaveMap-tone-making trip. More to come ...

IR calculation is a large dollop of theory and math, but no matter how you optimize your IR generation code, is still a calculation with assumptions that are only mostly true.

An IR is miraculous starting with a pickup that has all the overtones, but horrible timber. For me that’s any piezo UST, crystal, polymer, braided, whatever.

It’s wonderful with passive SBTs that are already pleasant but not quite right.

As the pickup gets more complex an IR has less to offer and its underlying assumptions expose themselves.

1. An IR is too short to recreate room ambience and is calculated in a way that reduces ambience to EQ anyway.
2. A mic pointed at a guitar is not what we hear (try playing your guitar with one ear plugged and the other 8 inches in front of the fingerboard extension).
3. Our hearing has a built in SPL driven variable EQ (remember loudness controls on old stereo receivers?). So perfect louder might still sound off.

Thinking like an engineer with a good chunk of experience in reliability and a guitarist with hundreds of gigs under my belt, I love the combination of ToneDexter matched with a passive SBT. Complexity nicely encased in the highest of quality hardware and software on the floor, and a tiny bulletproof intrusion in the guitar.

One through three above and too much time scrutinizing is either a hobby or a curse :~).

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Larrison

Do you have a large diaphragm mic you could try? I think small diaphragms can be a little sterile sounding- which is awesome on acoustic with a full mix- but you may need to push a little more information to the TD.

That’s my next pursuit- I had good results with the Lewitt 040 (SDC) and I want to try some wavemaps with my Bluebird (LDC) to see if they sound a little fuller.

Thanks, Larrison, I've thought about trying something other than the Shure SM81. I've got a stereo pair of Ear Trumper Labs Edwina LDC mics and I can use one of them for IR generation with the ToneDexter II. To date, I haven't tried anything other than the Shure SM81. I also have a Heil PR-40 Large Diaphragm Dynamic mic that I could try. Then I also have some cheap Marshall MXL LDC mics. More experimentation to come ...

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

IR calculation is a large dollop of theory and math, but no matter how you optimize your IR generation code, is still a calculation with assumptions that are only mostly true.

An IR is miraculous starting with a pickup that has all the overtones, but horrible timber. For me that’s any piezo UST, crystal, polymer, braided, whatever.

It’s wonderful with passive SBTs that are already pleasant but not quite right.

As the pickup gets more complex an IR has less to offer and its underlying assumptions expose themselves.

1. An IR is too short to recreate room ambience and is calculated in a way that reduces ambience to EQ anyway.
2. A mic pointed at a guitar is not what we hear (try playing your guitar with one ear plugged and the other 8 inches in front of the fingerboard extension).
3. Our hearing has a built in SPL driven variable EQ (remember loudness controls on old stereo receivers?). So perfect louder might still sound off.

Thinking like an engineer with a good chunk of experience in reliability and a guitarist with hundreds of gigs under my belt, I love the combination of ToneDexter matched with a passive SBT. Complexity nicely encased in the highest of quality hardware and software on the floor, and a tiny bulletproof intrusion in the guitar.

One through three above and too much time scrutinizing is either a hobby or a curse :~).

Thanks, Jon, for the above information! What I've just done is change the DIP Switch position on the UltraTonic 3.2 in my Martin D-18 from 3 to 4. This should reduce the boominess and help reduce the hollowness I generally hear in this dreadnought when making IRs. I'll probably try an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina LDC. Time to experiment. More to come ...

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

That could well be the #1 red banner quote on the TD website. Ovation and Adamas were particular shudder-inducers for me for a long time. Beautiful to play, awful to amplify (other than finger picking, for which they were fantastic).

[/personal reflection]

Thanks, Shufflebeat! Yes, the venerable OCP-1K pickup can get quacky when driven hard with a flat pick but sounds almost mic-like when fingerpicked even without any signal enhancement. The OCP-1K pickup has six individual crystals and I'd estimate its signal output to be about 75% strings and 25% top. Back in the day, IMHO it was the best system for live acoustic playing and it can still sound really good. Check out Al DiMeola's playing with John McLaughlin and Paco De Lucia. Al's Ovation Custom Legend Al DiMeola model's tone stands out as acoustic and clear in the mix whereas the other guitars, John's pickup-equipped guitar, and Paco's mic'ed guitar while sounding good, aren't as front and center and articulate as Al's.