Apology to the arranging thread folks

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Absolutely, and this has always been one of my pet peeves. All you have to do is get out a guitar, and people will ask "what are you going to sing for us?" Probably would be better to be a sax player or something where it's obvious you aren't going to sing along with your instrument - at least not at the same time! What I was trying to suggest is that this comes from the pop music culture we have, where most people only encounter/like vocal music. If you play in an orchestra, or a jazz band, or solo guitar, that's so far out of most people's interest or experience that they barely know it exists. Try to find a radio program that plays instrumental music of any kind, let alone solo guitar! Even here on AGF, a pretty significant number of people will respond to comments like this with how boring they find guitar to be unless it's to accompany singing. I've just sort of started shrugging and saying "It's what I enjoy" and try not to let it bother me, which is all I was trying to suggest.

Thanks Doug. I get it now. I am rather sensitive about this because, for some reason, I have never really been attracted to pop culture as a whole. On the other hand, it would be nice to at least have some acknowledgement of my efforts.

If a person plays in an orchestra or a jazz band, I find that folks do know what that is and respect it, even if they don't know anything about the music. There seems to be pride in saying that "my son" or "my daughter" plays violin in the <insert name of regional orchestra> here, or I play in the <name of jazz group>. Whether people recognize the orchestra or group, there seems to be a legitimacy to that. I know because I have played in jazz groups, and know folks who have played in orchestras.

There seems to be a cultural "legitimacy" to playing in a jazz group or orchestra that does not seems to apply to playing solo guitar, for some reason. Maybe you are right and it is cultural. This seems to be uniquely applicable to the guitar. The Chapman Stick, harp, etc., seem to be unique enough to garner real audience attention. the guitar is commonplace and associated with singing. Even Elvis had a guitar that he rarely, if ever, really played in performance. It was a prop for him. Few could rattle off the name "Scotty Moore", the real guitarist who backed Elvis.

Now, my decision is based less on that and more on the practicalities of what I intend to do moving forward. My decision to focus on the piano is more along the lines of choosing a college major. If I want to find work that pays the bills, I am not going to major in Russian Literature, even if I love that field. However, if I also am really into technology, then a CompSci degree is certainly just as interesting and a much better choice.

However, that said, your point is certainly well taken, and I appreciate it. Considering how well you play and how much time and effort you have obviously put into that skill, as well as into your books, CDs, and videos, I would think this would be an issue for you. It was really sad to see my guitar teacher being completely ignored at that mall, even though he plays extremely well, played songs that everybody knows, and has spent years and invested a lot of money, time, and effort into formally developing those skills.

Conversely, with the exception of two years professionally in a supper club trio 30 years ago, guitar has been more of a hobby for me as I went on to a satisfying career in software engineering. Even so, it is still unnerving when somebody who sings, "steals the show" with very minimal guitar skills. That is when I feel like giving up - not when I encounter somebody far better than I am, such as TE (as a number of people around these parts will occasionally say - wow! I saw <name of top grade guitar soloist> and I might as well just sell all my guitars".

Even though I know better, and agree with your assessment, I think it is human to feel disappointment when your efforts are completely overlooked in favor of somebody with much lesser developed skills, who is willing to bellow along with a bit of strumming.

Edit: As a result of this conversation, I have a "new" theory about GAS. It is nothing more than a "consolation prize" for the efforts we each put into the craft of playing solo fingerstyle guitar. Obviously, not everyone in these forums who participates in GAS plays fingerstyle guitar, so the theory is not all encompassing, but it is certainly a consideration for those of us who do.

Tony

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Absolutely, and this has always been one of my pet peeves. All you have to do is get out a guitar, and people will ask "what are you going to sing for us?" Probably would be better to be a sax player or something where it's obvious you aren't going to sing along with your instrument - at least not at the same time! What I was trying to suggest is that this comes from the pop music culture we have, where most people only encounter/like vocal music. If you play in an orchestra, or a jazz band, or solo guitar, that's so far out of most people's interest or experience that they barely know it exists. Try to find a radio program that plays instrumental music of any kind, let alone solo guitar! Even here on AGF, a pretty significant number of people will respond to comments like this with how boring they find guitar to be unless it's to accompany singing. I've just sort of started shrugging and saying "It's what I enjoy" and try not to let it bother me, which is all I was trying to suggest.

Even as a kid, I always preferred instrumentals. But as you said, Doug, finding them on the radio was nearly impossible. It wasn't a problem for me, though, because I rarely listen to the lyrics of songs being sung. The voice is just another instrument. Oh, I might catch a word here or there in the lyrics, but pop music especially makes it really hard to understand every word (at least for my ears). So the voice just becomes another instrument. I wonder if anyone else listens to vocals the way I do. Hmmm.....

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

...Even though I know better, and agree with your assessment, I think it is human to feel disappointment when your efforts are completely overlooked in favor of somebody with much lesser developed skills, who is willing to bellow along with a bit of strumming...

Edit: As a result of this conversation, I have a "new" theory about GAS. It is nothing more than a "consolation prize" for the efforts we each put into the craft of playing solo fingerstyle guitar.

"Bellow" says it for me. In past threads I've expressed a combination of distaste, a degree of disrespect and eye-rolling over such shows as "The Voice."
I call it "The Scream." Seems most of the contestants think screaming out a song at the top of their lungs is what singing is about. It actually mentally hurts my vocal chords when I hear many of them and I wonder how long it will be before their vocal chords are damaged. I can hear so many of them overpowering their vocal chords. The fact that many people enjoy such shows indicates to me what I view as rather low taste and/or low knowledge on part of the general public. Yes, I know that sounds arrogant or elitist, which I don't want to be, but nonetheless that's my view...and I'm stickin' with it Conversely I've taken a fair amount of vocal lessons which have improved my voice significantly and have taught me how to properly use my voice, but I still have enough good sense and am honest enough with myself that I would not embarrass myself by singing publicly.

I suspect your theory about GAS has a fair degree of merit for many. But I have always been far enough out of the mainstream, in many ways, (I live out in the big woods, middle of nowhere, which might reflect that) that what little GAS I have is truly simply because I LOVE guitars, guitar music, guitar playing and the different tonal voices I can get from different guitars. I love the beauty of the woods and inlays, I love holding a guitar against my chest, feeling the vibrations complimenting the beat of my heart (waxing poetic). I feel no need for any sort of consolation. I feel no need for any sort of artistic recognition. The effort I put into my playing is in and of itself reward for me. I need no other.

I don't what to steal or distract from your thread Tony. Sorry if I have, but I find this conversation, the different points of view and their expression to be very interesting and stimulating.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

"Bellow" says it for me. In past threads I've expressed a combination of distaste, a degree of disrespect and eye-rolling over such shows as "The Voice."
I call it "The Scream." Seems most of the contestants think screaming out a song at the top of their lungs is what singing is about. It actually mentally hurts my vocal chords when I hear many of them and I wonder how long it will be before their vocal chords are damaged. I can hear so many of them overpowering their vocal chords. The fact that many people enjoy such shows indicates to me what I view as rather low taste and/or low knowledge on part of the general public. Yes, I know that sounds arrogant or elitist, which I don't want to be, but nonetheless that's my view...and I'm stickin' with it Conversely I've taken a fair amount of vocal lessons which have improved my voice significantly and have taught me how to properly use my voice, but I still have enough good sense and am honest enough with myself that I would not embarrass myself by singing publicly.

I suspect your theory about GAS has a fair degree of merit for many. But I have always been far enough out of the mainstream, in many ways, (I live out in the big woods, middle of nowhere, which might reflect that) that what little GAS I have is truly simply because I LOVE guitars, guitar music, guitar playing and the different tonal voices I can get from different guitars. I love the beauty of the woods and inlays, I love holding a guitar against my chest, feeling the vibrations complimenting the beat of my heart (waxing poetic). I feel no need for any sort of consolation. I feel no need for any sort of artistic recognition. The effort I put into my playing is in and of itself reward for me. I need no other.

I don't what to steal or distract from your thread Tony. Sorry if I have, but I find this conversation, the different points of view and their expression to be very interesting and stimulating.

Nailpicker,

Your posts are always interesting to me and don't detract from anything being said. As is usual, I agree with everything you have said, including about GAS. There are always several perspectives and I offer one as a possibility. I, too, love guitars and have amassed a fair collection. I can't say these are a consolation prize, but philosophically, I cold see that possibility.

there are a number of singers I do enjoy listening to. John Denver and Gordon Lightfoot come to mind of the more recent, and several of the crooners singing the standards.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by EllaMom

Even as a kid, I always preferred instrumentals. But as you said, Doug, finding them on the radio was nearly impossible. It wasn't a problem for me, though, because I rarely listen to the lyrics of songs being sung. The voice is just another instrument. Oh, I might catch a word here or there in the lyrics, but pop music especially makes it really hard to understand every word (at least for my ears). So the voice just becomes another instrument. I wonder if anyone else listens to vocals the way I do. Hmmm.....

I do listen to the lyrics, mostly out of curiosity. I agree that many are very difficult to understand. After understanding what is actually being said, I can understand why, and I have to ask myself - do people REALLY believe and agree with those lyrics?

What I have found is that if the song is playing and I am not really listening to it, then the lyrics seem much more clear. If I am working and concentrating on something, and in the vicinity somebody has the radio on, I can hear the lyrics. I heard a lot in ZZ Top that I truly wonder if people really celebrate. Microsoft bought the rights to the Stones' "Start Me Up". I wonder if anybody at the company REALLY listened to ALL of the lyrics to that song. Examples abound. If I quoted some of these here, I would expect to be censored by the moderators.

Like you, I have ALWAYS preferred instrumentals. Even with groups that I liked as a kid (The Beatles, for example), I prefer decent instrumental versions of their tunes. For whatever reason, Th Beatles were the exception. They hit when I was 10 years old, and I think that was the age group they targeted at the time. As I got older, i moved on to other music, but they were always a part of the fabric of my generation. So I never developed the desire to sing, and always favored instrumental ways of making music.

Tony