jazz players: help - i don't speak your language

[Bern]

Unless I missed it, nobody mentioned singing improvised melody lines to standard chord progressions ?

[woa_horsey]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

For regular jazz styles, Mickey Baker's books are still great.

Yeah, Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar: Book 1 along with any of Ted Greene's books on chords and progressions were my introduction to jazz back in the 70s. Arpeggios are important in jazz too. In rock and blues you work off riffs. In jazz you work more off scales and arpeggios.

[ruger9]

Jeff,

Thanks for the vids/lessons- I was unaware of them. HUGE help, I think. I seem to be able to jump into a jump blues...even wester swing-ish improv alright, but what most people would consider "straight" jazz, it's greek to me. I DO listen to the stuff, but maybe just not enough yet.

Looking forward to digging into your vids and learning some stuff.

[mr. beaumont]

Glad I could help.

There's soooo much BAD information out there about jazz....people who make it out to be rocket science and those who give you get rich quick schemes...couple that with those who have no idea what they're talking about and it can be pretty difficult to learn.

Jazz "education" is one reason to dislike the internet.

RE: Listening. You gotta listen like mad. Jazz doesn't have to be ridiculously hard, but you need to devote time to it. If you're not willing to devote 95% of your listening and playing time to jazz, then you got a rough road ahead of ya. Straight talk.

[ruger9]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Glad I could help.

There's soooo much BAD information out there about jazz....people who make it out to be rocket science and those who give you get rich quick schemes...couple that with those who have no idea what they're talking about and it can be pretty difficult to learn.

Jazz "education" is one reason to dislike the internet.

RE: Listening. You gotta listen like mad. Jazz doesn't have to be ridiculously hard, but you need to devote time to it. If you're not willing to devote 95% of your listening and playing time to jazz, then you got a rough road ahead of ya. Straight talk.

Well, I've been listening to big band jazz (mostly horn lines), literally since I was born... so that's 43 years now. Must be why I have an inherent "swing" to my playing. Seriously. Also why I find jump blues and western swing easier than "straight" jazz (or the chicken picken lightning-speed country, for that matter.) I know it's not rocket science, and I've been looking for something to "de-mystify" it for me... 'cause if someone could basically say, "here's the chords, here's the scale(s), start improvising... " I think I could nail it.

Have only been listening to "straight" jazz (johnny smith mostly, some joe pass, I have a few "jazz guitar compilations")... for a couple years now. And again- jump blues ALOT longer, Brian Setzer rock-and-jazz-abilly for a dozen years, and traditional swing, for 43 years.

[dgb]

Originally Posted by lone eskimo

I think it was the late great Joe Pass who said something akin to "if you don't live it, breathe it, play it 24/7 move on.."

I moved on after 10 minutes.

When I hear modern jazz I usually want to throw up.

[zabdart]

Originally Posted by jersey

thanks for the help everybody. i guess there's no substitute for hard work. the great thing is that learning is fun in it's own way and i'm discovering more and more great musicians.

Good for you! That's what makes music fun! There's always more to learn!

[trion12]

Originally Posted by mlr1122

James,
It's a matter of listening to a whole bunch of stuff that you like.

Then, try to transcribe a solo.
Transcribe it yourself so you can get inside it and understand it better.

+1

You gotta get familiar with the genre and that means lots of listening through the lineage of the greats (and I don't mean guitar players primarilly) so that the stuff gets imprinted into your being.

I did a music degree but I learned more I think transcribing and learning to play solos by great players than from most other things I did.
The thing about transcribing is that it forces you into a deep listening mode to figure the stuff out. Transcribing away from the instrument is best (with the odd check every few bars) because it will train your ears like nothing else, but don't be fooled - it can be very hard work.
I can recall repeating the same 2 beat phrase over and over on a cassette tape player for about an hour to figure out how Ed Bickert had the voices moving in a chord solo.

The really amazing thing I found from transcribing away from the instrument was that after having done the hard work to really hear what was going on so that I could write it down, when I would finish and go to pick up the instrument I could pretty much play it note for note the first time. That's the power of really deep listening.

The other thing is don't just transcribe guitar players. I transcribed some Parker and Coltrane solos and they were really hard to play on the guitar so the value there was not just in their ideas but in what it did to force me to come up with techniques to play stuff that did not naturally lend itself to the guitar.

Aaron

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ruger9

'cause if someone could basically say, "here's the chords, here's the scale(s), start improvising... " I think I could nail it.

Actually, all you need is ""here's the chords, start improvising... " .
Scales are not a lot of help, IMO. You can improvise straight off the chord tones, they give you all you need.
You want passing notes? Use either (a) notes from the chords either side, ot (b) chromatic approach notes (half-step below any chord tone).

If you've been listening to jazz as long as you say, the language is in your blood. You should have the feel, and the right kinds of phrasing, without any trouble. You KNOW how it's supposed to sound; you shouldn't be stuck for ideas. The only raw material you need is the chord tones (and maybe the melody).

[ruger9]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Actually, all you need is ""here's the chords, start improvising... " .
Scales are not a lot of help, IMO. You can improvise straight off the chord tones, they give you all you need.
You want passing notes? Use either (a) notes from the chords either side, ot (b) chromatic approach notes (half-step below any chord tone).

If you've been listening to jazz as long as you say, the language is in your blood. You should have the feel, and the right kinds of phrasing, without any trouble. You KNOW how it's supposed to sound; you shouldn't be stuck for ideas. The only raw material you need is the chord tones (and maybe the melody).

Yeah, I'm thinking that's a big part of my "mental block"... in my former styles (rock, metal, blues), it IS all about the scales... blues and pentatonic scales for blues, major and minor scales with some blues notes thrown in for metal, etc... Chords? All you need is the root and the 5th baby lol.

Chords + melody. That sounds like it would get me AWAY from scale-ular thinking, and just playing the notes I hear in my head, which has always been my goal: be able to improvise instantly, hear in my head the notes the split second before they're needed, then be able to play them, instantly, instead of relying on sales and licks.

Back when I was composing music, I would also compose my solos- I'd listen to the song, then compose an entire solo in my head before figuring it out and putting it on tape. I rarely just wanked away on scales, at least when composing/recording. To me, the solo was a song in itself.

Most of the melodies I LOVE come from horns- if I had been born earlier, I might very well have been a horn player- Glen Miller, Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Louis Armstrong, Louis Jordan.... which is why I love what Brian Setzer has been able to do with the big band thing, incorporating not only guitar but guitar as the FRONTING instrument.

Sometimes I think the only reason I listen to jazz guitar (and I'm not a fan of bebop much, I like Charlie Christian swing-ish stuff better, pre-50s), is because I love the melodies and I play guitar. But I'm starting to wonder if, when playing in this style, I actually have the phrasing and swing of a horn player... I just have to find the right notes.

Am I correct in assuming the horn players also work off of chord tones? (and of course the melody).

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ruger9

Yeah, I'm thinking that's a big part of my "mental block"... in my former styles (rock, metal, blues), it IS all about the scales... blues and pentatonic scales for blues, major and minor scales with some blues notes thrown in for metal, etc... Chords? All you need is the root and the 5th baby lol.

Chords + melody. That sounds like it would get me AWAY from scale-ular thinking, and just playing the notes I hear in my head, which has always been my goal: be able to improvise instantly, hear in my head the notes the split second before they're needed, then be able to play them, instantly, instead of relying on sales and licks.

Back when I was composing music, I would also compose my solos- I'd listen to the song, then compose an entire solo in my head before figuring it out and putting it on tape. I rarely just wanked away on scales, at least when composing/recording. To me, the solo was a song in itself.

Most of the melodies I LOVE come from horns- if I had been born earlier, I might very well have been a horn player- Glen Miller, Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Louis Armstrong, Louis Jordan.... which is why I love what Brian Setzer has been able to do with the big band thing, incorporating not only guitar but guitar as the FRONTING instrument.

Sometimes I think the only reason I listen to jazz guitar (and I'm not a fan of bebop much, I like Charlie Christian swing-ish stuff better, pre-50s), is because I love the melodies and I play guitar. But I'm starting to wonder if, when playing in this style, I actually have the phrasing and swing of a horn player... I just have to find the right notes.

Am I correct in assuming the horn players also work off of chord tones? (and of course the melody).

It would vary from player to player of course, but I'd guess most horn players would start from the melody. They will often be playing that anyway, as they tend to be the lead instruments. It's traditional jazz practice to "embellish the melody" as a beginning to improvisation.
Working from chord tones would be a next step.
In jazz workshops I've been to, they always start the process by working through the changes playing one chord tone at a time. All the roots; then all the 5ths; then all the 3rds; then all the 7ths (wouldn't have to be in that order). Then the guide tones, which (in a conventional cycle of 5ths sequence common in mainstream jazz) means 3rd followed by 7th followed by 3rd, etc. After that, maybe 9ths and 11ths or 13ths, but these are not always applicable and (when they are) are often subject to alteration, so that would depend on the tune.
So before they start improvising they know where to find all the chord tones. They know how the guide tones work. Btw, like 3rds and 7ths, roots and 5ths also tend to lead to one another.

Check out Hal Galper's masterclasses. He's talking the exact kind of language that should suit your jazz experience and soloing instincts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehOx1JsuT4
- starts with a great anti-chord-scale rant , then explains the traditional "let the melody be your guide" concept.
If you like that one, find all his others: they're all solid gold.

[jasperguitar]

Jeff the beaumont ... I ended up watching a little of a video last night .. I ended up picking away at minor 7th arpeggios... Good practice..

I'm not much of a jazz guy.. Even when I played the trumpet, I never got into the jazz sound. I do have a couple of Miles Davis albums .. and a few other old jazz albums.. I once went to the Newport Jazz festival.. back in the day.. Saw Dizzy Gilespie.. bunch of others...

Playing jazz chords, arpeggios, whatever .. is good for learning ..

I like that part ..

...................

your videos are kinda funky... ha ha ha ha ha .................




" The biggest thing that makes jazz sound jazzy is the extended harmony in the chords, and playing solo lines that address that harmony. This means that jazz players aren't looking for a catch all scale that fits all of the chords in a progression...they address each chord separately.

I've done a bunch of videos for beginning jazz er's. "

[mr. beaumont]

Re: chord tones v. scales

This isn't really an either/or...they're both just roadmaps.

I advocate chord tones to jazz beginners because it instantly gets them away from the way they were used to thinking...i also think it's beneficial because everybody wants to blow...a lot of folks coming from a rock or blues background don't see the part about learning chords all over the neck as fun...so by viewing the fretboard in terms of chord tones and arpeggios as jumping off places for improv, it connects the idea of accompanyment and lead playing...

I think it's beneficial for someone wanting to get into jazz to throw away the concepts of rhythm and lead guitar. There's only "guitar playing."

re: funky videos

The vids I have on youtube are mostly things I recorded to specifically address someone elses question...I don't consider them "lessons"...that implies teaching, and teaching is an interaction...you don't interact with a video...therefore I see no reason to make slick, well produced videos...these are just snippets to illustrate a point.

[Paikon]

if you don't like jazz you cant play it...you can learn all the theoretical stuff and you can sound jazzy but the trick is to like this particular music

[jasperguitar]

Jeff the beaumont ... ha ha ha ha h a............ I knew that would get a rise ... ha ha ha ha ha ............ funky or not, they are good, and I learned a few things...

...