Build Number 2 - Tasmanian Blackwood/German Spruce Nylon Crossover

[Rodger Knox]

Nicely done! I've been considering this, I have one with a redwood top that has cracked across the grain. Sooner or later I'll have to replace that top.

[Truckjohn]

Very nice work. You did a fine job there!

[emmsone]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

Very nice work. You did a fine job there!

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

That's impressive! Congratulations on making this work out.

Thanks guys! i'm pretty happy with it, but i won't know for sure how its gone until its all sanded and the new fretboard goes on.

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Nicely done! I've been considering this, I have one with a redwood top that has cracked across the grain. Sooner or later I'll have to replace that top.

Thanks Rodger!
I don't know if you've done this before, I am clearly not the go-to guy for experience here, but what I would say is that if someone like me with only a few builds worth of experience can get a result this decent, there is clearly something logical in the method I used, in fact thats one of the reasons why i used this method, it made sense to me before I actually did it.
It also has another big advantage for already complete guitars in that you only need to refinish the top, the rest stays as it is.
One extra tip I would give if you use this method is that when you take the top off leave the braces attached to the sides as long as you can, as soon as you release the structural integrity of the bracing the whole guitar can shift and twist on more than one axis. Try to make some kind of way to hold the body shape in place when you take the braces out. I wanted to use my mould but that didn't work for 2 reasons, 1. my neck doesn't come off, and 2. something happened right at the end of the build when it was in the mould such that the guitar won't go back in anymore that nicely anyway.

[Truckjohn]

One "trick" I have seen used is to make a temporary mold out of cardboard. Then shim strategically to get the guitar body back to the precise shape...'

[emmsone]

So,
The top replacement was a success.

However, attempts to fill the small gaps with black CA filler, which worked so nicely previously, looks to have ruined yet another top.

It looks like I mixed the filler too thin and therefore it soaked into the end grain of the spruce. I'm not sure how deep its gone from the surface, sanding has seem to have reduced it, but having sanded through the previous top, i'm nervous about how much sanding I can do. It seems to have not been an issue at the edges, only really the issues are on the end grain.


Does anyone have any idea how I can get rid of these horrible looking stains?


I'm fully expecting to have to replace the top again, however I cannot bring myself to do that. Option number 2 is to stain the top black.

Here are the pictures, the last picture shows it worked out ok on the edge grain. The rest is just a disaster. I would say if someone see's me near a guitar again they should smash me round the head with a 2x4 but thats not ideal as this guitar NEEDS to be fixed/finished as its a commission. Just make sure I don't see you coming.

Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr

Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr

Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr

Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr

Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr

[LouieAtienza]

David, you may consider doing a burst finish...

[emmsone]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

David, you may consider doing a burst finish...

I thought about that, but I most definitely can't do that myself, and I spoke to the guy who was/is currently going to do my finishing, says he isn't capable of that, so i'm looking around to find another finisher somewhere in the Switzerland / surrounding area who may be able to do something to this effect.
If this isn't possible, or more likely, WAAAY over budget, i'm fully expecting to be told its going to be a $1000 job, in which case, i think i'll have no option but to stain the top black (apart from the rosette)

[Rodger Knox]

For future reference, a seal coat of shellac would have prevented that. I always seal spruce with shellac before using CA, the clear stuff will wick into the spruce and turn it yellow.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

For future reference, a seal coat of shellac would have prevented that. I always seal spruce with shellac before using CA, the clear stuff will wick into the spruce and turn it yellow.

I second that. Sometimes I use the CA glue method on bindings, so I'll brush some shellac in the binding ledge to prevent any CA bleed.

I actually spray a thin coat of shellac over my tops and on closed-up boxes. Keeps them protected until sanding time, and I can tape right over it without fear of pulling out grain.

[charles Tauber]

Under the heading of, "For future reference", in a galaxy far, far away, before CA glues were invented, people often used a drop of glue - or a small amount of 5 minute epoxy - and as much sanding dust as the glue would hold. That created a paste that could be used to fill gaps. When fully dried, it could be sanded or scraped level.

It worked well on hardwoods, particularly using sawdust from that wood. If one wanted solid colors, such as black, one could use powdered pigments instead of wood dust. It didn't work well on light-colored woods like spruce or maple, unless you could get the color to match well. (Hint: sanding dust from maple or spruce when mixed with glue doesn't match the color of the original wood.)

The paste will not bleed into end grain, and is very easy to contain - doesn't wick into places you don't want it - but will fill torn areas adjacent to the gap to be filled, such as spruce adjacent to purfling/binding.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I actually spray a thin coat of shellac over my tops and on closed-up boxes.

Same here, only I brush on a couple of coats as the first step in finish preparation. I do it to highlight the rough spots that don't show until they get covered with finish, sealing and protecting is a bonus.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by emmsone

I thought about that, but I most definitely can't do that myself, , in which case, i think i'll have no option but to stain the top black (apart from the rosette)

Can you get an airbrush? Spraying a burst isn't that difficult with an airbrush, you can practice on big pieces of paper. If you don't like the results, you can still stain it black. I've always sprayed onto bare wood, but a couple coats of shellac under the color is usully recommended. You've already done more difficult things in this thread. I'm assuming the final finish will be nitro, it would be worthwhile to be sure the colors you use are compatble with nitro. That's actually a little misleading, you'll want to use a water-base color. Colors formulated for mixing with nitro(the normal way to spray a burst) will bleed when nitro is sprayed on them. James Condino has an article on doing hand rubbed burst, it's in a recent GAL magazine.Here's my first, done using an airbrush(before digital photography!):

[emmsone]

Thanks guys
So from what you are saying the conclusion is the black filler that bled into the wood is there to stay and its not fixable.

Theres a lot of 'for future reference' points that came up, which is great but i think i'm running out of space in my head to remember all the 'for future reference' points that have come up with in this thread

As far as the sealing goes. I did a while back buy a bag of blonde dewaxed shellac. As I have no idea how to mix / prepare / apply / deal with this, its still sat untouched in a box of my guitar tools and bits and pieces on the floor of my apartment.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Under the heading of, "For future reference", in a galaxy far, far away, before CA glues were invented, people often used a drop of glue - or a small amount of 5 minute epoxy - and as much sanding dust as the glue would hold. That created a paste that could be used to fill gaps. When fully dried, it could be sanded or scraped level.

It worked well on hardwoods, particularly using sawdust from that wood. If one wanted solid colors, such as black, one could use powdered pigments instead of wood dust. It didn't work well on light-colored woods like spruce or maple, unless you could get the color to match well. (Hint: sanding dust from maple or spruce when mixed with glue doesn't match the color of the original wood.)

The paste will not bleed into end grain, and is very easy to contain - doesn't wick into places you don't want it - but will fill torn areas adjacent to the gap to be filled, such as spruce adjacent to purfling/binding.

Thanks Charles, I used Glu-boost with their black powder pigment, it worked perfectly on the end graft, and around the binding on the previous top. I have to assume that this time round I added much less pigment to the mixture and thus it was thin enough to wick into the end grain.
Sealing would have also helped, but as mentioned, I have zero clue about shellac.

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Can you get an airbrush? Spraying a burst isn't that difficult with an airbrush, you can practice on big pieces of paper. If you don't like the results, you can still stain it black. I've always sprayed onto bare wood, but a couple coats of shellac under the color is usully recommended. You've already done more difficult things in this thread. I'm assuming the final finish will be nitro, it would be worthwhile to be sure the colors you use are compatble with nitro. That's actually a little misleading, you'll want to use a water-base color. Colors formulated for mixing with nitro(the normal way to spray a burst) will bleed when nitro is sprayed on them. James Condino has an article on doing hand rubbed burst, it's in a recent GAL magazine.Here's my first, done using an airbrush(before digital photography!):

Thanks Rodger, well my painting skills have always sucked and I'm not sure agree this would be easier than other things that i've done. Its a long ay outside my comfort zone and skill level. Also looking at the price of airbrushes and airbrush kits, they seem well out of affordability range and thus paying someone else to do it would be equally expensive and then I might get a decent result.
The finisher I was/still might use doesn't use Nitro, he uses normally either PU or Acrylic lacquers.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by emmsone

Theres a lot of 'for future reference' points that came up, which is great but i think i'm running out of space in my head to remember all the 'for future reference' points that have come up with in this thread.

That's what a notebook is for. (Or the modern digital equivalent, in which it is even easier to keep track of various ideas.)

[emmsone]

I'm still rattling around between the options and as yet i'm no closer to deciding which way to go.
a) stain the whole top black
b) sunburst the top, not sure if i can go as subtle as the Moonburst as used on the Ryan guitar(s), as the burst needs to cover the mistake, if thats even possible to be that subtle and cover the mistake but thats what i have in mind.
c) add an additional inner layer of purfling
d) try and manually soak in black filler all around the edge so it looks deliberately awful all the way around
e) rout off the whole binding and re-bind, but i don't think this is a great idea either as i'm not sure where i'm gaining
f) re-top again, but i really, really don't want to go with this option as this top looks fantastic and i feel like i've voiced it well.


I'd be very, very pleased if someone had an easier alternative to offer to perhaps remove the filler? some way to 'unsoak' the filler out the grain?
Anyone reading this feel free to make a suggestion, no matter how ridiculous...


In the meantime i've been lent this tool to experiment with to perhaps cut a new internal purfle line. I'd have to go very shallow, but i'll see how the tests go. Also with not a lot of lining width left already, i don't know how sensible this option is.
Untitled by David Emm, on Flickr