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  #16  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:11 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I will say this about the Aura, I think it sounds best when it comes installed in a guitar with a specific image of that guitar included. The Martin guitars with the Aura always sound amazing but trying to pair a random Aura image with a guitar just never sounds right. I have a question though.. You said the Aura did not degrade tone on your HD28E Retro. However, did it not come installed in that guitar? Just wondering how you assessed any tonal change?
Well, funny you should ask...

I did a number of trials with different saddle materials in the Retro, ultimately ending up with the TUSQ it came with :-), and managed to damage the shielding foil on the Matrix pickup. So, $65 later from Elderly, I was in the process of installing the replacement Matrix. To do so, you need to remove the preamp from the side of the guitar. While I had everything apart and sitting on my bench, I though "Hmmmm, I wonder what this sounds like with all the stuff out of it?" So, before putting it back together, I removed the system and put a full height saddle in, and strung it up. Somewhat surprisingly, I realized it sounded the same. I surmise that the harder material they use to make the Matrix UST does not degrade tone noticeably. Secondly, mounting all the electronics to the acoustically inert sides seems to have little impact on tone. At least, with the system out, I could discern no noticeable difference. I cannot say the same thing about the Anthem system. And, I presume the new Martin Aura systems that use a soundboard mounted preamp will also degrade tone like the Anthem. Moreover, the soft material that they make the LR Baggs element UST from seems to have more impact on tone. Without processing, the element pickup does sound better than the Matrix, but I only use the Matrix with Aura imaging.
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Last edited by martingitdave; 10-13-2017 at 09:19 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:36 AM
DavidE DavidE is offline
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I have a like new K&K Pure Preamp I could sell ya...
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:57 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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I have a like new K&K Pure Preamp I could sell ya...
Thanks David. I just sold that one and got the Fishman. :-) Round and round it goes, where it stops...
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  #19  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:32 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Well, funny you should ask...

I did a number of trials with different saddle materials in the Retro, ultimately ending up with the TUSQ it came with :-), and managed to damage the shielding foil on the Matrix pickup. So, $65 later from Elderly, I was in the process of installing the replacement Matrix. To do so, you need to remove the preamp from the side of the guitar. While I had everything apart and sitting on my bench, I though "Hmmmm, I wonder what this sounds like with all the stuff out of it?" So, before putting it back together, I removed the system and put a full height saddle in, and strung it up. Somewhat surprisingly, I realized it sounded the same. I surmise that the harder material they use to make the Matrix UST does not degrade tone noticeably. Secondly, mounting all the electronics to the acoustically inert sides seems to have little impact on tone. At least, with the system out, I could discern no noticeable difference. I cannot say the same thing about the Anthem system. And, I presume the new Martin Aura systems that use a soundboard mounted preamp will also degrade tone like the Anthem. Moreover, the soft material that they make the LR Baggs element UST from seems to have more impact on tone. Without processing, the element pickup does sound better than the Matrix, but I only use the Matrix with Aura imaging.
Interesting, thanks! I had the Matrix Blend System (UST and gooseneck mic) in my Taylor for years. I went from the ES1 to it. To be honest, when I removed it, I felt like my guitar got a bit brighter, I actually liked the tone with the Matrix installed. I did lower the action a tad so that has to be factored in but if anything, the Matrix improved my tone instead of degrading it so your findings are close to mine.

As for the Anthem, the change in tone IMO is 100% on the Element. I don't think the tru-mic has any noticeable change and I would think the same would be the case for the new aura systems. They are so light that they move with the top.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:09 AM
brancher brancher is offline
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Well folks, I’ve been through nearly every pickup on the market. I’ll soon update my pickup comparison chart with my latest testing experiences. Frankly, I’ve decided that there really are no “bullet-proof”, “one size fits all”, solutions available on the market for my needs.

Basically, from my testing, there are two types of pickups: ones that have a dramatic effect on acoustic tone and ones that have no discernible effect on acoustic tone.

What I can surmise is that most of the better sounding pickup systems, that also reject feedback well, have the most impact on tone.

Those pickups (sound board transducers) that have little effect on acoustic tone, are more prone to feedback.

So, I’ve spent much of 2017 trying to find pickup solutions that sound great and don’t effect acoustic tone. After all of these tests, I’ve landed right back where I started: the K&K Pure Mini passive system.

I’m a little disappointed to admit that I haven’t found a better compromise. But, I’m also satisfied that I tried nearly everything available (except for Dazzo).

Henceforth, I expect to use K&K in all of my acoustic guitars. I’ll now look into preamp/DI solutions that can be belt clipped. I’ll look at IR convolution solutions like Tondexter and some home brew options Cuki and I will work on this winter.

I will also be keeping my HD28E Retro for gigs. To my ears, the Aura F1 Plus system remains the best OEM solution on the market. It does not degrade acoustic tone and sounds very realistic.

Each player has to weight the factors that are important to them. But, for me, keeping my acoustic guitars as lively, powerful and resonant as possible is very high on my list. Even though I’ve found some excellent compromise pickups, and dual source rigs, that are good for a stage guitar, I still haven’t found one that keeps the guitar sounding fresh and lively.

So, I’m interested in folk’s options for gear outboard of a passive K&K install. And, I’m particularly curious as to what people use when they want to keep everything portable (i.e. without the use of floor pedals.) For instance, until I settle on an IR convolution option, I intend to use the Fishman Pro Platinum Stage compact preamp system.
Hi Dave, and I am GLAD you are doing the experimenting (and not me!!)...

I've been on a quest for the best compromise pickup as well, flirted with Fishman Rare Earth, Looked at Lyric, also currently infatuated with the M80. But since I had used the K&K minis before, I put one in my Yairi 12-fret slope, and I do like it. I use it with the K&K Pure preamp, belt-mounted (some folks like the K&K XLR preamp better, but I've never used one). Anyway, I run the passive signal thru the preamp and I plug into the effects loop return jack so I am using my preamp to shape sound and not the built-in preamp on the amp itself.

I do like the sound, but there are also some nice benefits from the magnetic sound hole pickups... One night (it's funny what old people will do to keep the boredom at bay..) I hooked up the K&K on channel one, and also the Rare Earth in channel 2, adjusted, and I got a really full, complete, crisp sound. Nice soundboard response with just a touch of that magnetic response. I really liked it. But it is a little bit of a pain I guess.

I have heard that the Baggs M80 will most competently mimic this effect without the cumbersome and often troublesome dual-source mics jiggling around, so that's something I would be interested in trying if I had the opportunity.

Anyway, I just got a another K&K pure mini for my D18, but haven't installed it yet, still stressing over the whole 'best solution' part. Also, I am not a professional musician - just a player who plays out some, plays for small groups for pennies (or free), etc.

And the punch line? Well, in a crowded bar during an open mic, turns out I am the only person in the joint who is obsessing over the sonics.... everybody else is just drinking beer and wondering why I'm not playing Buffet....

Thanks again for the science. Keep it UP.

Hope this helps.
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  #21  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:17 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Interesting, thanks! I had the Matrix Blend System (UST and gooseneck mic) in my Taylor for years. I went from the ES1 to it. To be honest, when I removed it, I felt like my guitar got a bit brighter, I actually liked the tone with the Matrix installed. I did lower the action a tad so that has to be factored in but if anything, the Matrix improved my tone instead of degrading it so your findings are close to mine.



As for the Anthem, the change in tone IMO is 100% on the Element. I don't think the tru-mic has any noticeable change and I would think the same would be the case for the new aura systems. They are so light that they move with the top.


I think the preamp units adhered to the top are also culprits. But, one of my friends agrees with you.
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  #22  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:20 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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And the punch line? Well, in a crowded bar during an open mic, turns out I am the only person in the joint who is obsessing over the sonics.... everybody else is just drinking beer and wondering why I'm not playing Buffet....

Amen to that! :-)
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  #23  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:25 PM
brancher brancher is offline
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Amen to that! :-)
So, the reason I posted this is so you would go out and buy an M80 and let us know about it........
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:03 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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So, the reason I posted this is so you would go out and buy an M80 and let us know about it........


Lol. You’ll have to do better than that. :-)
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  #25  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:55 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Lol. You’ll have to do better than that. :-)
I was playing my K&K equipped Larrivee tonight and that is a very nice pickup. Definitely very mic-like. It makes me really want to try the tonedexter, I just wish there were more reviews/demoes on it. It's a lot of money to get for an experiment.
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  #26  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:57 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s pickup adventures 2017-2018 edition

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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I was playing my K&K equipped Larrivee tonight and that is a very nice pickup. Definitely very mic-like. It makes me really want to try the tonedexter, I just wish there were more reviews/demoes on it. It's a lot of money to get for an experiment.

Yup. We’re of the same mind. We need a friend with a Tondexter to borrow.
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  #27  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:39 PM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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And why did you go as far to try every pickup on the market then not try Dazzo?

Try it, send it back to Teddy if you don't like it. It really nothing to lose. You have come this far. Your not a quitter are you?

I am at around 26 unique pickup configurations later I am content to leave things where they lie.

Here is a link to a video I recorded on my iphone at church a couple of weeks ago. The guy playing guitar is not me but he is playing my Goodall through our church's system with all EQ set flat. What you don't hear is the magnificant deep bass that was lost in the iphone recording. I am reluctant to post it for that reason. It was the first time I have heard my own guitar from the audience perspective since I have had Dazzos installed. I was thrilled with the sound live. The only thing that is different is the sound guy employs a high pass filter set around 200hz on my guitar when I am playing with the full band so it sets in the mix nicer.

https://youtu.be/7s9hpd63G3Y
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  #28  
Old 10-14-2017, 07:45 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Dave’s pickup adventures 2017-2018 edition

Vancebo, my biggest concern with the Dazzo is the epoxy installation. I’m reluctant to use epoxy on any of the guitars I have. I’d have to see Teddy do it in person before I’d have the guts to use it on my Marquis or Custom shop Martin. I’m fairly adept at installing and removing K&K with no mess. My expectation is that, like Trance, there would be better high end articulation. And, that would be probably a perfect solution for me, otherwise.
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  #29  
Old 10-14-2017, 10:31 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Vancebo, my biggest concern with the Dazzo is the epoxy installation. I’m reluctant to use epoxy on any of the guitars I have. I’d have to see Teddy do it in person before I’d have the guts to use it on my Marquis or Custom shop Martin. I’m fairly adept at installing and removing K&K with no mess. My expectation is that, like Trance, there would be better high end articulation. And, that would be probably a perfect solution for me, otherwise.
That's something that I have disliked about the Dazzo as well. I also don't like how it seems to be a difficult install in terms of placement. I have discovered that I am not big on experimenting although the Dazzos do sound awesome.

Oddly enough, I find that the Trance Amulet M has a very distinct piezo tone to it. I did a comparison last night of my K&K equipped Larrivee and Amulet equipped Taylor and I was somewhat surprised with the results. The K&K was much warmer and maybe a bit more muffled (could use some eq) but the tone was very woody, which really sounded natural. The Amulet on the other hand had a much more hi-fi quality. It was as if the presence/treble had been turned up. The thing is, it also sounded like a piezo.

I did a recording of my band using my Touchmix 16 mixer the other night. I listened back to my Taylor and the Amulet definitely sounded very much like a piezo. It was better than a UST but it totally has a distinct tone to it. A tone that I don't hear with dazzo demoes. The other odd thing with my Amulet is that it adds a bit of hiss to my signal. I am still trying to figure out why.

I might take the plunge and order the tonedexter. I was going to go back to the Anthem (full version) but I really like the thought of something simple like a Dazzo or K&K into a tonedexter.
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  #30  
Old 10-14-2017, 12:42 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
That's something that I have disliked about the Dazzo as well. I also don't like how it seems to be a difficult install in terms of placement. I have discovered that I am not big on experimenting although the Dazzos do sound awesome.

Oddly enough, I find that the Trance Amulet M has a very distinct piezo tone to it. I did a comparison last night of my K&K equipped Larrivee and Amulet equipped Taylor and I was somewhat surprised with the results. The K&K was much warmer and maybe a bit more muffled (could use some eq) but the tone was very woody, which really sounded natural. The Amulet on the other hand had a much more hi-fi quality. It was as if the presence/treble had been turned up. The thing is, it also sounded like a piezo.

I did a recording of my band using my Touchmix 16 mixer the other night. I listened back to my Taylor and the Amulet definitely sounded very much like a piezo. It was better than a UST but it totally has a distinct tone to it. A tone that I don't hear with dazzo demoes. The other odd thing with my Amulet is that it adds a bit of hiss to my signal. I am still trying to figure out why.

I might take the plunge and order the tonedexter. I was going to go back to the Anthem (full version) but I really like the thought of something simple like a Dazzo or K&K into a tonedexter.
Petty, I think you will be fine with amulet and tonedexter. Don t forget Amulet has the best dynamic with the 18v preamp. I am very happy with my own IR pedal and Sprucetop also with amulet + TD.

Try tonedexter before removing the amulet
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