The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 08-06-2017, 12:22 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

There's the old saying about "talking about music", and the basic sentiment is true, but being able to abstract the concrete into symbolic form or apply it more broadly in theoretical ways is what makes us HUMAN.

The whole deal with guitarists being almost SUPERSTITIOUS about any level of theory or knowledge is what makes us the objects of jokes by pianists and other real musicians. B minor pentatonic sounds good over the iii chord in G for very practical theoretical reasons, but at the very least, simply play it, and decide for yourself. It's not complicated.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-06-2017, 12:27 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

I wish more people would PLAY something about what they are talking about. I don't understand the aversion to that. We are folks who play guitar, right?

By playing here what we are talking about, it becomes real. People can post all manner of stuff about "play this, play that" or expound on theory, but until the person demonstrates what they are talking about, it is little more than words. Agree, disagree, it doesn't matter, but I will continue to illustrate with sound, what I am talking about. I think that both has value and gives at least some credibility to what is being said. A person can be anything at all on the internet, until something is done to make it real, such as posting a recorded illustration.

My last post contained some theory and I have a good handle on it. We are not going to get away from that. I think that knowing theory is an essential aspect of the craftsmanship part of music, so I am not saying don't study or learn theory. However, I think, in hindsight, that it is best to learn it in the context of the song, rather than just learning it for the sake of learning it, and then knowing what to apply, when.

As for listening to how things sound, I have been saying that in my posts here.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:56 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

I prefer to hear where my fingers ought to go rather than calculate it out. That said a certain degree of theory is useful to most anyone.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:58 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I prefer to hear where my fingers ought to go rather than calculate it out. That said a certain degree of theory is useful to most anyone.
I fully agree with this.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-06-2017, 06:34 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
I just played what sounded OK to me, rather than thinking about this or that scale or mode and getting all intellectual about it, though it is really nothing more than a pentatonic scale when it comes down to it. I didn't just pluck the notes out of the blue, I do know my scales. I just don't obsess about it
Tony, I'm sure you don't mean for this to sound as condescending as it comes across to me personally. I don't understand all the implications about being "all theoretical". I haven't read anything particularly preachy or know-it-all in this thread. Just seems a bit much. Anyway, talking about a simple approach which utilizes pentatonic scales isn't "obsessing" over anything as far as I'm concerned.

Here's something I did this afternoon before a meeting. Should have checked the level first. There's a weird pitch shift phenomena toward the end too, but it's a basic idea. Didn't actually listen to the tune today, but it's what I remember of wild horses. I know it's a different feel..
https://youtu.be/iJOEYiPw8WQ
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-06-2017, 06:48 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Tony, I'm sure you don't mean for this to sound as condescending as it comes across to me personally. I don't understand all the implications about being "all theoretical". I haven't read anything particularly preachy or know-it-all in this thread. Just seems a bit much. Anyway, talking about a simple approach which utilizes pentatonic scales isn't "obsessing" over anything as far as I'm concerned.

Here's something I did this afternoon before a meeting. Should have checked the level first. There's a weird pitch shift phenomena toward the end too, but it's a basic idea. Didn't actually listen to the tune today, but it's what I remember of wild horses. I know it's a different feel..
https://youtu.be/iJOEYiPw8WQ
mattbn73,

I am glad you checked with me before interpreting my post. Condescending didn't even cross my mind. That was not my intention at all.

What I am reacting to is not you. You made things very straight forward. Instead, it seems as if threads like this tend to get AWAY from your simple "just try the Bmin pentatonic..." and into "well, if we know the chord progression we can advise what to play over what chord".

I really wonder how much of that stuff people really use in their day to day playing. If they do, why not post an example to show us how it really works in practice?

Edit:

Watching your video, I think we are arriving at the same end from slightly different ways of approaching it. For the kind of music you are talking about, I use what I call the "lilly pad" approach. I know the various pentatonic scales all over the fretboard. These are a vocabulary, much as we use words (interesting, you just talked about that in your video...). I simply resolve (land) on "safe notes", which are the notes in whatever chord is happening at the time, and play whatever I feel in between. It is really easy to do and requires no thought, but instead just learning to hear. The main thing to me is to play in phrases like sentences so there is some sense to it, and not just rambling. I tried to show some of that phrasing in my recording.

Just as we have to have a vocabulary to post in this thread or have a direct conversation and not have to think about each word, so it is for me with soloing (and obviously for you).

I think if the OP were to watch your video several times to take it all in (all 8 minutes), that person would have plenty to work on and lots to listen to. I think you can now see why I am rather adamant about posting a video or MP3. I have put up videos to illustrate a point too.

This time, I made a WAV file because I needed to overdub a lead over a chord progression, which I could do in a video if I hooked up a bunch of stuff (amp, looper), but I didn't have that kind of time, so I just grabbed a recorder and made a recording on the fly. I decided that if I gave a musical example, the OP could listen to it and figure it out since it is really a simple example.

Anyway, nice job and thanks for taking the time to make that video. I am glad we got things cleared up too.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...

Last edited by tbeltrans; 08-06-2017 at 07:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-06-2017, 08:24 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
mattbn73,

I am glad you checked with me before interpreting my post. Condescending didn't even cross my mind. That was not my intention at all.

What I am reacting to is not you. You made things very straight forward. Instead, it seems as if threads like this tend to get AWAY from your simple "just try the Bmin pentatonic..." and into "well, if we know the chord progression we can advise what to play over what chord".

I really wonder how much of that stuff people really use in their day to day playing. If they do, why not post an example to show us how it really works in practice?

Edit:

Watching your video, I think we are arriving at the same end from slightly different ways of approaching it. For the kind of music you are talking about, I use what I call the "lilly pad" approach. I know the various pentatonic scales all over the fretboard. These are a vocabulary, much as we use words (interesting, you just talked about that in your video...). I simply resolve (land) on "safe notes", which are the notes in whatever chord is happening at the time, and play whatever I feel in between. It is really easy to do and requires no thought, but instead just learning to hear. The main thing to me is to play in phrases like sentences so there is some sense to it, and not just rambling. I tried to show some of that phrasing in my recording.

Just as we have to have a vocabulary to post in this thread or have a direct conversation and not have to think about each word, so it is for me with soloing (and obviously for you).

I think if the OP were to watch your video several times to take it all in (all 8 minutes), that person would have plenty to work on and lots to listen to. I think you can now see why I am rather adamant about posting a video or MP3. I have put up videos to illustrate a point too.

This time, I made a WAV file because I needed to overdub a lead over a chord progression, which I could do in a video if I hooked up a bunch of stuff (amp, looper), but I didn't have that kind of time, so I just grabbed a recorder and made a recording on the fly. I decided that if I gave a musical example, the OP could listen to it and figure it out since it is really a simple example.

Anyway, nice job and thanks for taking the time to make that video. I am glad we got things cleared up too.

Tony
Thanks, Tony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
I really wonder how much of that stuff people really use in their day to day playing.
The word "use" is tricky because I think it implies something about what you're THINKING as you're PLAYING. Again, maybe you're thinking that when you originally develop it - in PRACTICING something - and then later on it's just a natural.part of your playing.

I just feel like we always end up talking about beginning thought processes for developing ideas or practicing as if we're going to be forever locked into similar contrived thought processes while we're PLAYING or something. It just doesn't quite work that way.

Personally, I'd make a big distinction between playing and practicing. Practicing can involve a lot of thought. A lot of conscious effort. A lot of planning. PLAYING is more the opposite.

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-06-2017, 08:58 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Thanks, Tony.

The word "use" is tricky because I think it implies something about what you're THINKING as you're PLAYING. Again, maybe you're thinking that when you originally develop it - in PRACTICING something - and then later on it's just a natural.part of your playing.

I just feel like we always end up talking about beginning thought processes for developing ideas or practicing as if we're going to be forever locked into similar contrived thought processes while we're PLAYING or something. It just doesn't quite work that way.

Personally, I'd make a big distinction between playing and practicing. Practicing can involve a lot of thought. A lot of conscious effort. A lot of planning. PLAYING is more the opposite.

Thanks again.
What I found in my own experience is this (which may or may nt concur with other folks' experience...

Being self taught, I found that it was largely a case of the "blind leading the blind" as to what to work on, when, and for how long, as well as how much weight to give a particular subject.

I taught myself to read standard notation as well as chord charts. Both were finite in that you start at one end and finish at the other when you could read.

I taught myself fingerpicking from books, and again, that was finite in the sense that could Travis pick and knew some patterns, I could pretty much go off on my own from there.

Music theory was a completely different story. The big problem was thinking that I needed to know all this theory, so I learned and read and learned and read.

When I got a job as a working musician, playing Holiday Inns, supper clubs, and resorts, I found that I really didn't anything near the content of all that I had read. If anything, all that stuff involved way too much thinking.

I had to learn to let go of all that and just start listening, using my ears to determine what sounded good. That is what practice was for me for quite some time.

My personal opinion is that advice that has been tested on the bandstand is good, and the reality is that this stuff is relatively simple for pop music. The rest is pretty much worthless. That is why I emphasize that maybe we should PLAY as much as we talk here, providing examples of what we talk about so we know the talker is also a doer who really does know of what s/he speaks.

Jazz is another story altogether and classical is also its own world. I don't claim to know much about those in terms of being able to step up and play. It would certainly be easy enough to SEEM as if I do by posting a lot of text that sounds like I know what I am talking about. But to somebody who is trying to learn and is relying on good, solid, practical information, this would be almost a crime in my opinion.

I agree with you about practice vs playing, but in a forum such as this, we don't really know people, so we don't know whether they have even tried the stuff they are talking so freely about unless we hear and possibly see, them play. Well intended bad advice can steer a person down a blind alley that could waste a lot of time and effort. To avoid that, it is really much better for a person seeking information to trust posts from those who are willing to back up their claims with something real in the form of a video or audio recording about the subject matter. Cameras and recorders are cheap and easy to operate these days, as are sites that can host our material. There is no reason these days to avoid adding that dimension of reality to our virtual world.

In sub-forums where we are just BS'ing about guitars, maybe there is some latitude. But in this sub-forum where people come for direction in their own practice, I think these things are very important.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-07-2017, 07:35 AM
dkstott dkstott is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Middletown, Connecticut
Posts: 1,368
Default

The OP simply asked about a Bm chord or scale in the key of G.

Simple answer; Start the with Bm chord you know and play the chord arpeggio... Experiment from there.

At some point all this talking about music theory and what chord or note goes with what becomes way too tedious to me. Too much talking about theory and not enough playing.

A lot of the jazz guitar forums get wrapped around this talk.

Ohh was that a flat 5 chord played? Heck, the truth is that it was probably used simply to get the melody note desired. There wasn't any forethought about the name of the chord.

George Benson says that they never sat around and discussed modes or scales. He said that after gigs, they all went someplace to eat... Occasionally there'd be talk about a phrase played. They learned / stole chords and phrases from listening and watching others.

IMHO - Roy Bookbinder said it best "If it sounds good to you, then it's good.

Meaning if the chord or note sounds good to you. Who the heck cares what key or mode it is part of.

Frank Zappa is a close second with "Shut up and play your guitar"

just my humble interjection....
__________________
2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe
2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar
2016 Godin acoustic archtop
2011 Godin Jazz model archtop
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-07-2017, 09:27 AM
Mr. Jelly's Avatar
Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sioux City, Iowa
Posts: 7,848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkstott View Post
At some point all this talking about music theory and what chord or note goes with what becomes way too tedious to me.
The music and sounds that brought me to playing guitar and keep me playing guitar was originally made by people that didn't have a clue what a theory was. That is the foundation from which I learned. When things get a little to complicated I kind of put the brakes on. When a back woods guy with an out of tune instrument was playing some lick he wasn't thinking about no theory. He was more realistically thinking "what's it sound like if I put a finger down here?" Plus I can't really say I get into the music of theory players. But, hey, that's me. And I do know theory. I'm just saying.....
__________________
Waterloo WL-S, K & K mini
Waterloo WL-S Deluxe, K & K mini
Iris OG, 12 fret, slot head, K & K mini

Follow The Yellow Brick Road
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-07-2017, 09:44 AM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkstott View Post
The OP simply asked about a Bm chord or scale in the key of G.

Simple answer; Start the with Bm chord you know and play the chord arpeggio... Experiment from there.

At some point all this talking about music theory and what chord or note goes with what becomes way too tedious to me. Too much talking about theory and not enough playing.
That's fine, as long as you realize that what you see as a "simple answer" is kind of a personal thing. I'm fine with someone saying "for me personally..." and then offering their 2 cents, but to do so while labelling someone else's way as contrived or over-complicated is a different deal.

As a teacher, arpeggios are going to always be a tougher sell than a pentatonic, at least on the guitar. Arpeggios are only simpler on paper. One pentatonic scale serves a major chord and its relative minor equally well, while major and minor arps ate preferred for specific chords. Honestly, the problem presented in the original post wasn't on what TO play, but more like what NOT to play.

In fact, "the entire G major scale" is the PROBLEM, and an answer like "play B minor pentatonic" or "play a B minor arpeggio" are not theoretical complications. They are theoretical SIMPLIFICATIONS. I think to make a big distinction between pentatonic versus an arpeggio, in terms of one being more "theoretical", is splitting hairs in a way that reflects personal opinion more than anything concrete.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=