Muted mandolin chop

posternutbag · #1 11-17-2013, 02:45 PM

For those of you who play some bluegrass (and even for those who don't but would like to comment) what do you think about a mandolin player who totally mutes his/her chop; instead of letting the chord ring briefly, they just whack at muted strings. I've even played with players that didn't even bother to make chord forms, they just muted all the strings and played like a drummer.

Most of the mandolin players I know think this is cheating. On mandolin cafe, the attitude seems to run the gamut between total bush-league beginner nonsense to a viable technique.

I am interested in what people who post on a non-mandocentric forum think.

HHP · #2 11-17-2013, 02:49 PM

Technically, "chop" is not totally muted. You form a closed 4 finger chord, strike the strings, and relax pressure to mute out the chord sound. You can do it quickly but there should be a chord sound at some point, not just the sound of muted strings.

posternutbag · #3 11-17-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HHP

Technically, "chop" is not totally muted. You form a closed 4 finger chord, strike the strings, and relax pressure to mute out the chord sound. You can do it quickly but there should be a chord sound at some point, not just the sound of muted strings.

Yep, I agree, excellent definition of a chop. But it seems that as time goes on, the chord part of the chop continues to loose importance, and more and more players are just whacking at totally muted strings. As a guitar player, I actually don't have a problem with the mandolin player in my band doing this, but I have seen other mandolin players looking at her askance.

aphillips · #4 11-17-2013, 04:05 PM

I use that every once in a while to add rhythm or percussion and I think it works well. Certainly not as an all the time thing - but here or there it works.

These guys seem to do ok with it

- check out around 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVDhnVWcO8U

Wade Hampton · #5 11-18-2013, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aphillips

I use that every once in a while to add rhythm or percussion and I think it works well. Certainly not as an all the time thing - but here or there it works.

Same here. As an occasional - VERY occasional - effect it's fine, and no more "improper" or "oughta be illegal" than tapping on the top or any other percussive technique.

But if it's in every song, or every third song, it's a bit much, I think.

I think a valid comparison can be drawn with effects pedals - I've used chorus and distortion pedals onstage, but my rule has always been that any given effect could be used only once per set. Any more often than that, and it gets old very quickly.

So in my opinion, the question should be not whether this is a valid technique, but whether it's being used sparingly enough to contribute something fresh and, yes, musical to the song.

But if it's become a sort of "default setting" and used to avoid coming up with an actual musical contribution, then it needs to be rethought.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

BobbyBadd · #6 11-18-2013, 09:09 AM

Getting a good sounding chop takes time and practice. Its a great technique to get a deep sounding chop, while still having the chord in its essence. After many years, I found that playing the chord, but only chop on the two base strings gives the best sound, IMO.
There are times when I don't play a chord and just put my had on the strings, but that is more for a percussive fill or scratching type sound.
Play the chord, try to emphasis the hit on the lower strings, and pull off, mute, very quickly works best. Even with a very fast mute, you can tell if the chord is accurate. Sam Bush is the best example that I can think of for a chop to emulate.

K-vegas · #7 11-18-2013, 10:22 AM

I hear it all the time in recorded tracks. Most of which sounds fine to me. It seems to favor the higher bpm stuff.

rgregg48 · #8 11-18-2013, 02:49 PM

Sam Bush is known for a semi muted chop.... works for him

Rick

CanadaMan · #9 08-21-2014, 12:00 PM

I was at a workshop once with master mandolinists Mike Marshall, Chris Thile and John Reischman. They were asked what they are working on. Thile was working on Bach, Marshall the Goldberg Variations, and Reischman said, "I'm working on my chop." Marshall was floored and said, "Wow, that's great. Something so elementary." Reischman explained that he wants his chop to sound like the actual chord, not just a bunch of muted strings. Bottom line: "choke" your chop, don't mute it, and try to make it sound like the chord being formed.

Bingoccc · #10 08-21-2014, 02:34 PM

If it's not the real thing, I think even a two or three finger chord, with the open fingers dropping down for the mute, would sound better than just hitting completely dead strings.

Teleman52 · #11 08-21-2014, 05:50 PM

I often lightly mute with my palm. I like the sound better and you can still hear the chord. But in a full on jam, that doesn't work because the chop is too quiet. It works great for when just jamming with a couple of friends

GerryinAZ · #12 08-21-2014, 07:02 PM

For bluegrass you play the entire chord and you don't mute it. You play it staccato. Lift your left fingers only after having sounded the notes of the chord. That's part of the art of having a good chop.

For criminy sakes don't mute your chop. Bluegrass prison officials will put you away for a looooong time!

I started out in the BG scene. Don't do that stuff no more. I like doing things that (as per posts up above, many do here) I feel like doing and it doesn't mesh with the BG Police. I get invited out of too many jams.

posternutbag · #13 08-21-2014, 07:41 PM

Holy thread necromancy!!

I was actually the OP and since posting I have played in many more jams, even playing some mandolin from time to time. I find what works best for me is to place my fingers in the chord positions but not fret the notes. I just put very light pressure on the strings, but not enough pressure to fret the notes. That allows me to hit the two lowest strings really hard and just get the faintest hint of a chord, along with a lot of thwack. I think it is actually more work than a full chop but I like the sound.

K-vegas · #14 08-22-2014, 09:14 AM

Sounds like a good chop technique to me. The more I play the less I like to hear the E string peeking out of a good chop rhythm. I have a Grisman recording that for a couple measures he has the E string really ringing on a chop and it always reminds me not to do that.

posternutbag · #15 08-22-2014, 01:00 PM

If I hear the E string ring I know I have done something wrong. When I first started playing rhythm on mandolin, the D chord gave me fits because my pinky would rest against the 7th fret E string, and I would hear the harmonic. I had to adjust my hand position to keep that from happening.