National Hot Rod Cone v. older National Cone

I have a 2006 National Vintage Steel Delphi which has the older National cone in it and have been curious for some time what I could expect if I changed the cone to a Hot Rod. I was wondering if anyone here has swapped an older National cone with a Hot Rod cone and, if so, what the perceived tonal/volume differences were...

[blue]

This is all personal opinion. I've swapped in both single and tricone Nationals. I found the single cone to be a slight improvement after breaking in. In pretty much every area. I couldn't really hear any difference with the tricone. Not saying there wasn't any. I just couldn't swear that I heard a difference, let alone what I would call an improvement.

Of course they are handspun. they are all unique. Each guitar is also unique. So my experience doesn't really mean much. 3 cones could come together that would turn my Polychrome into an absolute beast. But the three I put in didn't.

So, if I found killer deals on an older single and tricone tomorrow, I probably would consider a hot rod in the single cone if I was bored and felt like tinkering. I would leave the tricone alone.

Again. That's just me.

Originally Posted by blue

This is all personal opinion. I've swapped in both single and tricone Nationals. I found the single cone to be a slight improvement after breaking in. In pretty much every area. I couldn't really hear any difference with the tricone. Not saying there wasn't any. I just couldn't swear that I heard a difference, let alone what I would call an improvement.

Of course they are handspun. they are all unique. Each guitar is also unique. So my experience doesn't really mean much. 3 cones could come together that would turn my Polychrome into an absolute beast. But the three I put in didn't.

So, if I found killer deals on an older single and tricone tomorrow, I probably would consider a hot rod in the single cone if I was bored and felt like tinkering. I would leave the tricone alone.

Again. That's just me.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. When you say "improvement" for the single cone, do you mean more sustain, attack, warmer, brighter, etc.? Just curious.

I have played my VS Delphi a lot for several years and it now has what I would describe as a nice, deep bass. Of course it is hard to tell how the tone of the guitar might have changed over the years, but it does seem deeper sounding to me. Your post suggests that I might not hear a dramatic difference if I installed the Hot Rod cone. Thanks again for the response.

[blue]

Originally Posted by m-thirty-great

Thanks for sharing your experiences. When you say "improvement" for the single cone, do you mean more sustain, attack, warmer, brighter, etc.? Just curious.

I have played my VS Delphi a lot for several years and it now has what I would describe as a nice, deep bass. Of course it is hard to tell how the tone of the guitar might have changed over the years, but it does seem deeper sounding to me. Your post suggests that I might not hear a dramatic difference if I installed the Hot Rod cone. Thanks again for the response.

A little sustain, but warmer and fatter mostly. Definitely not brighter, and the attack was unchanged. Again it all comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't have counted brighter and sharper/more responsive attack as improvements in a single cone. There's already a ton of that. Someone else very well may.

You may hear an improvement, whatever your definition of that is, and you may not. National is either chasing a "vintage tone" or chasing customers who think they know what a vintage tone is and want that. Thinner steel they are using unlike your delphi and my polychrome, domed backs, again unlike your delphi and my polychrome, etc. Hot rod cones are definitely more than just marketing hype, but I found the changes on my guitar to be in the words of Bob Brozman "less than 10%" Others may find more significant changes.

If yours sounds good, and you play it regularly, I wouldn't change a thing. But that's me.

Originally Posted by blue

A little sustain, but warmer and fatter mostly. Definitely not brighter, and the attack was unchanged. Again it all comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't have counted brighter and sharper/more responsive attack as improvements in a single cone. There's already a ton of that. Someone else very well may.

You may hear an improvement, whatever your definition of that is, and you may not. National is either chasing a "vintage tone" or chasing customers who think they know what a vintage tone is and want that. Thinner steel they are using unlike your delphi and my polychrome, domed backs, again unlike your delphi and my polychrome, etc. Hot rod cones are definitely more than just marketing hype, but I found the changes on my guitar to be in the words of Bob Brozman "less than 10%" Others may find more significant changes.

If yours sounds good, and you play it regularly, I wouldn't change a thing. But that's me.

Thanks, this is helpful!

[skipster]

i agree with Blue. After some serious A/B ing with Brozman one afternoon, we came to the conclusion that the single cones were an improvement, but the tricones not noticeable.

[tdq]

Just as an aside, I've seen these discussions before and I'm still not clear on the terminology and history of cones.
When someone says hotrod cone, is that what National Resophonic are using now?
What is meant my the "old National Cones", as m-thirty-great mentions?
What terminology do we use when talking about cones from an original (1930s-ish) national?
Where do "continental" and "quarterman" cones fit into the mix?

I have a 2012 NRP, what cone does that have in it?

[blue]

Originally Posted by tdq

Just as an aside, I've seen these discussions before and I'm still not clear on the terminology and history of cones.
When someone says hotrod cone, is that what National Resophonic are using now?
What is meant my the "old National Cones", as m-thirty-great mentions?
What terminology do we use when talking about cones from an original (1930s-ish) national?
Where do "continental" and "quarterman" cones fit into the mix?

I have a 2012 NRP, what cone does that have in it?

You have a Hotrod


In this discussion Older National Cone means pre 2006/2007. At that time National changed alloys to a closer match to the original nationals form the 20's/30's/40's . Theoretically hot rods should sound more like those vintage cones. It's actually impossible to A/B because setup would change as you moved from guitar to guitar. But you have to applaud and respect the effort. They have the best cone on the market and didn't have to do a darned thing.

The shape of the Single cone hotrod cone is also a little different than the 1999/2007 National cones. The new tricones will drop right in, but the singles require some setup work. Not sure why they went that route, but I'll assume the new metal required some engineering to match the strength of the older ones. They are serious about engineering down there at National. But that could explain why some folks hear a difference with the singles but not so much with the tricones. The tricones are simply different metal. The singles are different metal and different shape.

"continental" and "quarterman" cones are other makes of cones. I doubt anyone will get upset if I call them "inferior in quality and tone". It's great that they are out there. But if you can afford Nationals, get nationals.

[tdq]

Great, thanks Blue. I was in the ballpark but never quite sure. Now I am!