adirondack vs sitka spruce

[Folkstrum]

My "golden ears" lost a few Hz over the years. I got ahold of a very sweet 12 fret Adi over Brazilian last year...yes, it sounded very nice! However, I think such pricey extras are wasted on me. All things being equal, so to speak, I thought my MJ with German over perfectly quartered and grained EIR sounded just as fine to my ear. Blindfolded, I likely would not be able to detect Braz or Adi on its own. Guess I'm a "cheap date," eh??

[Matt Mustapick]

I certainly respect Howard Klepper's opinion (Hi Howard ) and the opinions of others whose ears tell them first-hand, over a large sampling of guitars, that Adirondack is tops for tone. I'm just not one of them, and that's okay. For me, Sitka and Adirondack are both wonderful.

I am convinced however, that besides those people, there are many many others who are mistakenly assuming that Adirondack is better simply because it is more expensive. Remember, price is determined by supply. If you were to notice that fresh lobster was more expensive in Boise than in Bangor would you then guess that the lobster in Boise was better?

I certainly don't mean to take anything away from Adirondack either. I encourage my customers to consider it, but I don't charge more for it because I want my customer to think about top woods on the merits, not price.

[Howard Klepper]

I don't charge more for Adirondack either.

I didn't say this: "Adi is better than Sitka."

And I didn't say this (Hi Matt): "Adirondack is tops for tone."

I can understand those inferences, but what I wrote is a more limited explanation of why I choose not to use Sitka for my flattops. I don't have proof to offer that Adirondack is best, or better than Sitka. I don't have proof that one guitar is great or another just good. But I have reasons why I think some guitars are great, or better than others, and I can point these out if we listen to a guitar together. From that and my experience of various guitars I've decided which top woods I want to use. I don't want to just say that I like Adirondack better than Sitka and leave it on the level of whether chocolate is better than vanilla [of course it is!], because I think my reasons appeal to some widely shared values about how a guitar should sound, and not just my own tastes. But those reasons may not be convincing to everyone, and if that happens I won't be right and you wrong; we will just disagree.

BTW, I build more often with European spruce than with Adirondack, and I also build with other top woods. It depends on what I or my customer are seeking. If someone likes the sound of a Sitka topped guitar best, I may suggest (after some conversation and clarification) that he or she seek a different builder, because our ideas about sound are not in synch.

[keyshore]

Hi,

for years i have played cedar and then stika spruce topped guitars, my playing style is soft fingerstyle. I had stayed away from Adirondak because i was given to understand that it's meant for bluegrass type power playing styles and it takes years to 'open' up.

I was pleasantly surprised when i got my Bourgeois, when new it was sounding open and the notes has wonderful string separation, articulation and overtones. In fact the Bourgeois sounds even better when played softly, even a gentle caress gives a beautiful tone. The Adirondak top too is spectacular looking without the usual visual flaws, i read about. Is it the wood or Dana's skills, i dont know. But IMHO it's superior to S. Spruce. I guess this is saying a lot and i dont mean that S. Spruce is an inferior wood in comparision. But I think Adi has got an edge over stika.

Best,

Keyshore

[keyshore]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

IBTW, I build more often with European spruce than with Adirondack, and I also build with other top woods.

sorry dont mean to hijack this thread

Hi Howard,

i have often heard that the German and/or Italian spruces sold in the US are actually Engelman imported back to a US at a hefty price by some dishonest dealers.

How do luthiers make out the difference?

Best,

Keyshore

[wthurman]

I've owned or played many hundreds of guitars over the last nine years. I've played great ones with every spruce in the catalog (at least the catalog I've seen so far): Sitka, Englemann, Adirondack, Italian, German, Carpathian, etc. No question... they're all good. What's funny is that my favorite so far, which I now own, is a Koa/Sitka Goodall CJ, and just four years ago I wouldn't have touched a guitar based on those woods. And yet this guitar is responsive to a light touch, has incredible headroom, volume and clarity, and I would match it up in terms of tonal quality with about any guitar I've ever heard... not better, just different, and also just as good.

It ain't the species. It's the pieces of wood and the builder who knows how to use them.

My other guitar, which I also love, is a Beneteau Concert Standard in EIR/Cedar. Very different, and very beautiful.

I guess I'm thinking this: if I love what I own and play, who gives a rat's hindquarters what kind of wood it is? The only reason I'd debate it would be if I ordered another custom build, and then I'd be talking to luthiers about their specific recommendations based on what I want and what they get from the woods.

[Twelvefret]

There is more of a mystique with red spruce since it was pretty much unavailable for many years.

Since Martin used red spruce for their Golden Era, many including me think the spruce had something to do with it.

For flat-picking and volume I think much can be said for the edge that red spruce gives the player.

Red spruce grows here is the Appalachian Mountains and I like playing on local tone-woods.

charlie

[Matt Mustapick]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I don't charge more for Adirondack either.

I didn't say this: "Adi is better than Sitka."

And I didn't say this (Hi Matt): "Adirondack is tops for tone."

Sorry Howard. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or set up a straw man, but I acknowledge I did both. Sloppy, but no disrespect intended. I'll be glad if there's ever an opportunity to listen to some guitars with you and maybe you could point out to me what you prefer. Cheers.

[Matt Mustapick]

Originally Posted by keyshore

sorry dont mean to hijack this thread

Hi Howard,

i have often heard that the German and/or Italian spruces sold in the US are actually Engelman imported back to a US at a hefty price by some dishonest dealers.

How do luthiers make out the difference?

Best,

Keyshore

I know you asked Howard and hopefully he'll weigh in, but if I may...

One way is to buy from reputable dealers you trust. Something else that gives confidence is that, while it can be difficult to be absolutely sure that one particular set of wood is this or that, if you put a pile of German spruce and a pile of Engelmann spruce in front of a guitar builder, they'll have a pretty good idea which is which, and their guess will almost always be right. Engelmann and Italian, now those could be tougher to tell apart.

[Tim McKnight]

One merit that Adi has, that has not yet been mentioned or discussed, is its velocity of sound. On average, Adi has the highest or quickest velocity of sound of any top wood species. When you ping Adi there is no delay in the sound but when you ping other tone woods they all have varying amounts of delay in the sound production. Granted we are splitting nano-seconds but its a fact. I suspect one reason why many fast flat pickers prefer Adi for leads and break out runs. It has exceptional clarity and note separation. Sitka is a great tone wood too but IMO has less note separation and clarity and I see many rhythm players gravitating towards Sitka.

[kulte]

Originally Posted by Matt Mustapick

Given the overlap, I think it may be even more useful to think of it more as the difference between a pizza from Rome or pizza from Bologna. Generally perhaps there are differences...but asking which pizza will be be "better" without knowing anything about the particular restaurants is extremely speculative. In this case, I could appreciate someone saying "I generally seem to like the pizza in Bologna better." But if someone were to say that any pizza slice in Bologna is more than likely to be better than any slice in Rome, then that doesn't make sense to me.

Well said.

But do not tell anyone in Rome that there is any chance a pizza in somewhere else is better than there.

cheers,
k.

[SuperB23]

I must say I enjoy these threads where multiple highly skilled luthiers chime in and discuss interesting subjects like this one!!!! Thanks for all your input Howard, Matt, and Tim!!

[banpreso]

Originally Posted by keyshore

sorry dont mean to hijack this thread

Hi Howard,

i have often heard that the German and/or Italian spruces sold in the US are actually Engelman imported back to a US at a hefty price by some dishonest dealers.

How do luthiers make out the difference?

Best,

Keyshore

i knew there was one article (i think by frank ford? i can't be sure) that talked about ONE dishonest wood dealer reimporting engelmann as european spruce. that article is often quoted during discussions of merits of different speices of spruce. i dont think MANY folks here think most euro spruce are fake engelmanns. it was just ONE dealer that was mentioned in the article. not even CLOSE to all european spruce on the market are fakes.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

One merit that Adi has, that has not yet been mentioned or discussed, is its velocity of sound. On average, Adi has the highest or quickest velocity of sound of any top wood species.

Hi Tim, Matt, Howard...
Several thoughts as a player I hope are relevant to the topic.

The point of this post is I really believe the builder is a key difference to the tonal differences in different species of Spruces being unleashed (for lack of a better term).

1. Different varieties of Spruce do exhibit different tonal characteristics
2. Different builders exploit the various (sometimes unique) properties of different Spruces in different ways...resulting in a variety of great results from the same woods.
3. Different players may not all want a quick responding note, stronger fundamental, nor less overtones...

I have a very rich, robust EIR/Cedar Dreadnaught and when I was commissioning a companion guitar built for it, it ended up being a very lightly built Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce OM which is still very mellow and sweet...fewer overtones, and very smooth, warm tone without quick response but sustains forever (figuratively).

My third handbuilt, which compliments both of the others, is a Koa/Sitka mini-jumbo which has very strong fundamental with some really nice overtones...quick response and amazing sustain.

None of the three is as strong on it's own as when combined (for recording purposes). Each has tremendous strengths which the other two only touch on, or overlap a bit with.

If I were to add a fourth, it would likely be an OM or GC sized Rosewood/German Spruce built by Gerald Sheppard. I played one of his at Healdsburg 2005 that is one of the finest examples of a balance between the EIR/Cedar and Brazilian/Adirondack I've ever played.

The point of this post is I really believe the builder is a key difference to the tonal differences in different species of Spruces being unleashed (for lack of a better term).

[JeremyG]

If you'll permit me a new guy blurb, given all this specialized Adi/Sitka/Engle. etc talk from the pro's here..

But..each and every.. time I pick up my gently used GA-8 (EIR/Engleman) Taylor, it never fails to amaze me how clear, clean, crisp yet deeply rich and "bronzy" (on the low E and A) this instrument sounds. It's amazing!

I know I don't have anywhere near the ear/appreciation you folks have but...I just had to blab! You guys must have REALLY good ears.

After 10-11 yrs absence from my old '88 HD-28, this thing amazes me.

Totally surprised this kid!

Carry on.