How far off the beat is normal?

[SunnyDee]

Over in General Discussion area, a bunch of us are taking this rhythm test with varying results. https://www.concerthotels.com/got-rhythm

I started wondering, though, how far off the beat is normal, because none of us is really a click track. I'm not talking about what makes for a good groove, we all know that pushing the time a bit here and there is more musical. I mean, when you are trying to keep a beat, how close do you really need to be?

According to this article, about a study with Brian Eno, "musicians excelled at keeping a steady beat, wavering on average by less than 10 milliseconds as compared to the 35 millisecond variance of non-musician control subjects."

So, we should certainly strive to be better than .035 off.

https://brettworks.com/2011/04/26/on...ummers-brains/

So, check my math, somewhere between .010 and .035 difference, right? So, does that mean that if I set a metronome to 120 and then tap an average of 120.01 beats here
http://www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm
that's the same as a .010 difference? Does that work?

Anyone else try this or have a better way to measure how close you can keep your average to the tempo you want?

[rick-slo]

Usually getting in the 920s range on the app in question.

Addendum: set my metronome to 120 (tempo of the app) and on a few trials tapped a computer key right along with that (test synchs up with your metronome during the first few taps). It did not make any difference in variability of test results or average score. - i.e. the brain hears it better than the finger taps it.


The metronome in your head and getting your fingers to respond to that given their physical reaction time and coordination don't match 100%.
Thus a question of validity as to something that measures to the millisecond. Can one maintain a tempo over a larger time interval is a question
of more relevance.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Usually getting in the 920s range on the app in question.

Addendum: set my metronome to 120 (tempo of the app) and on a few trials tapped a computer key right along with that (test synchs up with your metronome during the first few taps). It did not make any difference in variability of test results or average score. - i.e. the brain hears it better than the finger taps it.


The metronome in your head and getting your fingers to respond to that given their physical reaction time and coordination don't match 100%.
Thus a question of validity as to something that measures to the millisecond. Can one maintain a tempo over a larger time interval is a question
of more relevance.

I had tried that last year, and for me, it was quite difficult to get the metronome to sync with the app exactly anyway so no didn't make any difference then in my score.

How would you measure, if you needed to, maintaining a tempo over time, don't you still need to show an average variance?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

How would you measure, if you needed to, maintaining a tempo over time, don't you still need to show an average variance?

The app itself has a five second pause. For myself I have recordings I have made that I can check the maintenance of tempo on (in pieces where I intended to maintain tight tempo that is).

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The app itself has a five second pause. For myself I have recordings I have made that I can check the maintenance of tempo on (in pieces where I intended to maintain tight tempo that is).

I'd like to measure this for myself, can you tell us more?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I'd like to measure this for myself, can you tell us more?

Explain your question.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Explain your question.

Ok, I was asking what the average variance was on maintaining tempo and you seem to be saying that's not relevant, that instead you "check" maintenance of tempo over time some other way, I guess, so I'm asking how? Like with what software, maybe? So I can check mine myself to see how I'm doing.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Ok, I was asking what the average variance was on maintaining tempo and you seem to be saying that's not relevant, that instead you "check" maintenance of tempo over time some other way, I guess, so I'm asking how? Like with what software, maybe? So I can check mine myself to see how I'm doing.

Tempo variations to the microsecond as in the app are irrelevant. Somewhat larger interval variations are.
.
If you can record yourself it would help. For example in my recording of "Freight Train" (on my youtube channel) I can listen to the tempo in an early part of the recording and compare it to the tempo in the later part of the recording.

You could perhaps run a visual (silent) metronome app. Start off playing with it, shut your eyes for a time, and then look to see how closely you maintained the beat.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Tempo variations to the microsecond as in the app are irrelevant. Somewhat larger interval variations are.
.
If you can record yourself it would help. For example in my recording of "Freight Train" (on my youtube channel) I can listen to the tempo in an early part of the recording and compare it to the tempo in the later part of the recording.

You could perhaps run a visual (silent) metronome app. Start off playing with it, shut your eyes for a time, and then look to see how closely you maintained the beat.

Oh, I see, yes those are good suggestions. Yes, I do record and listen to it and can hear if I slow down on a chord change or something. I was looking for something more quantifiable, but those are good methods for improving for sure. Thanks.

[SunnyDee]

If you're not sure you really know the best way to "practice with a metronome," this is a fun/painless free course, Metronome Boot Camp. Guy's a good writer and inspirational. He uses a particular app, but since I don't have anything with iOS, I'm just using a different one and it's working fine so far.

https://fretboardanatomy.com/

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

If you're not sure you really know the best way to "practice with a metronome," this is a fun/painless free course, Metronome Boot Camp. Guy's a good writer and inspirational. He uses a particular app, but since I don't have anything with iOS, I'm just using a different one and it's working fine so far.

https://fretboardanatomy.com/

His dialog is just too irritating to wade through.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

His dialog is just too irritating to wade through.

To each his own.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Over in General Discussion area, a bunch of us are taking this rhythm test with varying results. https://www.concerthotels.com/got-rhythm

I started wondering, though, how far off the beat is normal, because none of us is really a click track.

Hi SunnyDee

As important a consideration which I've not seen discussed in the thread is as a backing guitarist I want to know how the person I'm backing (if they are playing) perceives the beat.

Do they advance the beat, play right on the beat, ritard the beat? Are they leaning into it, or laying back from it? Only classically trained musicians seem to play right on the beat - sometimes mechanically and rigidly.

In studio, I've had to sit down with musician friends invited into projects after we'd recorded the artist so the bassist and percussionist, or bassist and pianist for example, who have never played together, nor with the talent before, are synced to the same spot in the beat. Whatever the talent played is 'right'.

Many musicians don't know they are leaning into the beat (advancing it) or lagging behind (ritarding it). If you don't get all the players synced up when recording, then the person editing (via software) has his/her hands full in post.

And because some players are naturally free with the beat, it makes it very difficult to get them to record to a click track. Not because they cannot count, but because they flex. Trying to keep them synced to the click is like telling a race horse it cannot change lanes…

Many musicians have never been aware of it. They assumed everyone hears the beat like they do. And metronomes are of little value in learning it. They only stress a set well defined pulse…

Getting it correct is why some groups sound tighter than others.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi SunnyDee

As important a consideration which I've not seen discussed in the thread is as a backing guitarist I want to know how the person I'm backing (if they are playing) perceives the beat.

Do they advance the beat, play right on the beat, ritard the beat? Are they leaning into it, or laying back from it? Only classically trained musicians seem to play right on the beat - sometimes mechanically and rigidly.

In studio, I've had to sit down with musician friends invited into projects after we'd recorded the artist so the bassist and percussionist, or bassist and pianist for example, who have never played together, nor with the talent before, are synced to the same spot in the beat. Whatever the talent played is 'right'.

Many musicians don't know they are leaning into the beat (advancing it) or lagging behind (ritarding it). If you don't get all the players synced up when recording, then the person editing (via software) has his/her hands full in post.

And because some players are naturally free with the beat, it makes it very difficult to get them to record to a click track. Not because they cannot count, but because they flex. Trying to keep them synced to the click is like telling a race horse it cannot change lanes…

Many musicians have never been aware of it. They assumed everyone hears the beat like they do. And metronomes are of little value in learning it. They only stress a set well defined pulse…

Getting it correct is why some groups sound tighter than others.

Sounds complicated. Do you think there is a right way when you're playing with others? If you sync up with the talent, then is that just a new beat?

[SunnyDee]

I sent the test to my daughter. She just figured out how the program worked and sent this back.