Weird bridge reglue

[NeptuneBlue]

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in general, I figured I'd get better advice here. As a brief disclosure, I can do setups and crack repair but I'm no luthier.

The gist of the story here is I found a late 90's D-28 that I really love the sound of; it could use a setup (slight lowering of the nut) but plays decently well. My wallet likes the discount too, on account of it looking like it does. But whatever was done to it is weird; it's had the bridge off and it looks like someone attacked it with a palette knife to do so and then did a sloppy reglue. I checked the neck angle and it appears fine; the guitar intonates well up and down the neck, and my eyes don't detect any reduction in bridge height from shaving. I have no idea why it was done, other than maybe bridge lift at some point in the guitar's prior life?

I have not bought the guitar. I would like to because the sound speaks to me more than most D-28s I've played, and I wanted to do something nice for my birthday. I don't mind the aesthetic condition - if anything, having it roughed up already will make me less afraid to take it out because what's one more ding? But I am worried about the stability - I have no idea what was used (like, wood glue, or is that epoxy I'm looking at?) or why it was done.

So I guess my question is, what am I looking at here? Will this have any impact on the long-term life of the instrument?

P.S. I know the saddle looks low in the first picture. It's definitely been shaved but there is also an optical illusion, it's got over 2mm of clearance on it still as can be seen in the second picture

[nikpearson]

But if the bridge is stable then considerations are only aesthetic.

Typically a guide for string height above the soundboard is around 12-13 mm (0.5”) at the bridge. This figure isn’t critical but too little height and the guitar will sound weak, too much and the rotational forces will be excessive.

Martin use different bridge heights to compensate for neck/body geometry and to provide reasonable saddle projection above the bridge’s upper surface.

One option would be to remove the bridge and have a slightly larger one fitted to clean up this area. That’s not a hugely expensive job and you may be able to purchase a pre-made bridge of suitable size. Making a traditional belly bridge doesn’t take long though.

Sound and playability are the two most important factors with any instrument. If this guitar speaks to you then I’d say go ahead.

[phavriluk]

Well, some framing carpenter (re)installed that bridge...

If this was mine. I'd locate the bridge, remove it and clean up the bridge and the soundboard, and reattach the bridge after local finish repairs. I've done it and it's easy enough to do being careful (I needed to replace a pinless bridge that departed the scene) and the belly bridge I replaced it with was smaller; I found it was no big hassle to mask off around the bridge footprint and scrape/shellac/lacquer the bare spots and rub out the area, Can't tell where I refinished it. And I'm nobody's idea of a finish expert.

Enjoy the guitar!

[TheGITM]

Assuming you're getting a great deal, love the sound, and don't mind the aesthetics, then go for it!

If you would want to fix it up, my only concern would be not knowing what kind of adhesive was used to glue the bridge. As long as you can heat it for removal, it would be a fairly easy fix to remove, touch up the finish, and reattach, as was already suggested.

But again, if you like it as-is and you're getting a great deal then do it.

[phavriluk]

Excellent advice concerning bridge attachment. I hadn't considered the glue used to attach that bridge, which could be just about anything. A trusted professional's help may be a very good idea!

[redir]

It appears to me that what you are seeing is called cold creep along with a botched reglue. The guitar may have been over heated which softens up the glue holding the bridge down and due to string tension the bridge slides forward.

It's evident by what looks like the bridge being up against the pickguard and that trailing edge behind it.

The bridge needs to be removed and reglued.

On a side note this is why many luthiers still like to use HHG because it will not cold creep like that.

[TheGITM]

An additional thought or two... if possible, I'd want to see the bridge plate and braces to see if there are any big issues hiding on the inside. And then I wonder if the reason for the over-glue on the bridge is because the previous bridge removal was done poorly and ripped out a good amount of the top wood. In other words, if you remove the bridge will you find that there is little top wood left to bind to?

And then why so much finish crazing around the bridge? It makes me wonder if there was some kind of impact trauma, or if the guitar had previously bellied up really bad?

Lots of questions that can't be answered unless the guitar is in your hands...

[Bruce Sexauer]

A D28 with a rosewood bridge? Is the PG tucked under the bridge somehow? And the finish checking is unusual. Looks off-brand, to me. Problem remains the same, of course.

[NeptuneBlue]

Sorry for abandoning the thread, I've had a busier couple days than expected.

Originally Posted by phavriluk

Well, some framing carpenter (re)installed that bridge...

If this was mine. I'd locate the bridge, remove it and clean up the bridge and the soundboard, and reattach the bridge after local finish repairs. I've done it and it's easy enough to do being careful (I needed to replace a pinless bridge that departed the scene) and the belly bridge I replaced it with was smaller; I found it was no big hassle to mask off around the bridge footprint and scrape/shellac/lacquer the bare spots and rub out the area, Can't tell where I refinished it. And I'm nobody's idea of a finish expert.

Enjoy the guitar!

Thanks for the tip! I definitely don't mind most of it, but it's good to hear that the process is relatively straightforward. I don't mind the checking or scratches and scrapes, but do admit to being bothered by the sloppy glue job.

Originally Posted by TheGITM

If you would want to fix it up, my only concern would be not knowing what kind of adhesive was used to glue the bridge. As long as you can heat it for removal, it would be a fairly easy fix to remove, touch up the finish, and reattach, as was already suggested.

But again, if you like it as-is and you're getting a great deal then do it.

That's the part I'm most worried about. I know it's not a normal practice to remove the bridge unless it's absolutely needed, but I have zero idea of what was actually used. I do love the tone - it has that lovely thing going on where it has the warmth and clarity of a D-18 but with pretty rosewood overtones, kind of like a D-18 and a D-28 had a kid. Or like there's less of a scoop than normal in the EQ, for a 28 anyway. IDK if I can talk about actual dollars so for now I'll just say the price is good for what it is, a few hundred below what one in good condition might be. But whatever is going on with the bridge does have me worried for longevity.

Originally Posted by TheGITM

An additional thought or two... if possible, I'd want to see the bridge plate and braces to see if there are any big issues hiding on the inside. And then I wonder if the reason for the over-glue on the bridge is because the previous bridge removal was done poorly and ripped out a good amount of the top wood. In other words, if you remove the bridge will you find that there is little top wood left to bind to?

And then why so much finish crazing around the bridge? It makes me wonder if there was some kind of impact trauma, or if the guitar had previously bellied up really bad?

Lots of questions that can't be answered unless the guitar is in your hands...

Those are good points. I haven't been able to get back to it but next time I check it out I'll bring along a mirror and a ruler. There's not much to be done about checking for wood chunks missing under the bridge, but it would set my mind at ease a bit more to have more solid information about anything else going on inside the guitar.

Originally Posted by redir

It appears to me that what you are seeing is called cold creep along with a botched reglue. The guitar may have been over heated which softens up the glue holding the bridge down and due to string tension the bridge slides forward.

It's evident by what looks like the bridge being up against the pickguard and that trailing edge behind it.

The bridge needs to be removed and reglued.

On a side note this is why many luthiers still like to use HHG because it will not cold creep like that.

I was wondering about that. I couldn't tell if it was just some oversized non-original pickguard or if something else was going on. I can't figure out why that might be the case but the guitar still intonates, though.

In any case, thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

A D28 with a rosewood bridge? Is the PG tucked under the bridge somehow? And the finish checking is unusual. Looks off-brand, to me. Problem remains the same, of course.

Good eye on the bridge - that definitely looks more like rosewood than ebony. I wonder if it is even original... although a cursory look around the internet shows some other D-28s from that year having similar features.

This one in particular has a streaky looking bridge and a serial number less than 50 digits from the one I found: https://www.chicagomusicexchange.com...al-1998-936487

And Jake Wildwood had one at one point with a bridge that also has a rosewood look from the same year: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...ht-guitar.html

On the other hand, it could be a replacement bridge? I feel fairly confident about the guitar itself being a legit Martin because everything else looks right, and sounds right too - I played it against new Martins in the same room. Although perhaps I should be more wary of the Dunning-Kruger effect - after all, while the bridge repair set off alarm bells, the material it's made of did not until you pointed it out.

Maybe the weird finish checking could be a result of either the cold creep redir talked about? Or from a sloppy bridge removal, someone who didn't think to protect the rest of the guitar when they started to heat the bridge to loosen it to take it off?

[Rudy4]

You really need THAT guitar?

If I could get it cheap enough I'd pull the bridge / pick guard, fix any cracks or other defects and refinish the entire top, leaving the bridge area unfinished, of course. Then I'd add a slightly oversized new bridge to complete the work.

It looks like the top finish was probably damaged from heat when the bridge was removed the last time.

Make sure "special sound that speaks to me" isn't the result of shaved braces. There's a lot of butchery done on old instruments by arm chair luthiers who know just enough to be dangerous.

[John Arnold]

Regardless of whether the bridge is ebony or rosewood (I vote variegated ebony), it is not correct for a D-28. The bridge pins are too far down. There is too much space between the saddle and the pins. That results in two possibilities. Either the saddle is misplaced, creating bad intonation. Or the pins have been moved down, which involves alteration of the top and the bridgeplate.
The excess finish checking around the bridge is evidence of overspray or touchup.
In any case, the repair would involve removal of the bridge and touchup of the top, including possible repair or replacement of the bridgeplate. That would be followed by installation of a correct bridge. IMHO, it is not a candidate for an oversize bridge.
In most cases, bridges are reglued or replaced for one of two reasons. Either the bridge lifted (most often due to overheating the guitar), or the bridge cracked at the pin holes or at the saddle.
An off-the-shelf bridge was used.......one that is not correct for this model (or any Martin, for that matter). The inability to find a proper replacement bridge is why I almost always fabricate bridges from a blank. It is by far the most commonly repaired or replaced component.

[phavriluk]

There's a whole lot to process here about bridges. I'm grateful Mr. Arnold spoke up. I'd never have thought about the pin/saddle space relationship.

[NeptuneBlue]

Thank you John Arnold and everyone else who contributed, I learned a fair bit from all this.

For anyone who cares, I decided to pass on the poor thing. There was someone different working the shop and they got weirdly cagey about it when I asked to look it over. Last time I was able to play it no problem. This time, it had to stay on the hanger unless I was gonna buy it outright. I did the 12 fret harmonic/fret intonation thing anyway and it was indeed sharp - I guess last time I spent more time in the cowboy chord zone than anything.

They weren't being very cooperative and I decided it was neither worth the current price nor worth haggling further over. I've never reset a bridge and because I was not able to collect all the info I want, I fear the cost of further professional repairs might make it make more sense to just buy new or mint condition used. Hope someone with better skills than I do comes to pick it up because the bones are still good - it was still my favorite sound in the store.