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  #16  
Old 05-11-2010, 11:13 PM
7thbassbA 7thbassbA is offline
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Default Found new contractor

Will try to get original contractor to pay difference so i do not spend more than contract price to finish room out. Will see . . . .
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  #17  
Old 05-12-2010, 06:55 AM
redcloud redcloud is offline
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You keep calling this guy a "contractor". Sounds like he is a "wannabe" of some sort. Did you check references?
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  #18  
Old 05-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 7thbassbA View Post


Sent email about adding second layer of drywall with Green Glue to the existing drywall, no "room in room" and no added insulation. Here is response:

"Adding a second layer of drywall with Green Glue to one side of a wall will cut noise transmission by roughly 75%. Another option in your situation would be to frame in a second wall in front of the existing wall leaving a 1" space, fill the cavity with fiberglass insulation, and use 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue."
Whom did you send an E-mail to ? to get this response ? P.S Having retired from 35 yrs. in custom home construction , I have agree with redcloud above.
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  #19  
Old 05-13-2010, 12:07 PM
7thbassbA 7thbassbA is offline
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Default checked out

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Originally Posted by redcloud View Post
You keep calling this guy a "contractor". Sounds like he is a "wannabe" of some sort. Did you check references?
Was part of one of these outfits that pre-screens and qualifies local contractors. Had great references, which we checked.

Live and learn. The guy fixing the work has been used locally by friends and already did some work for us, so looking forward to getting my room finished.
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  #20  
Old 05-13-2010, 12:55 PM
Tone Gopher Tone Gopher is offline
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Was part of one of these outfits that pre-screens and qualifies local contractors. Had great references, which we checked.
I hope that you are able to share your experience to his known references.

We, too, have suffered from contractors with "great" references. I wish there was a better way to access all references and not just those from customers that got lucky.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

G'luck with your studio!
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  #21  
Old 05-14-2010, 07:42 AM
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OK so having been a contractor. I will now play devils advocate. But first if the electric was not up to code that is not the work of a pro. period. No matter what the references. And any time we broke something, which does happen, we replace it on our nickel, period. That said the next question is Was this job a bid job? Or a time and materials job?


And again you mention sending an e- mail about Green Glue and receiving a reply. with the claim of 75 % sound reduction ? from whom ?
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  #22  
Old 05-16-2010, 12:23 AM
7thbassbA 7thbassbA is offline
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Default Doubts about green glue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
OK so having been a contractor. I will now play devils advocate. But first if the electric was not up to code that is not the work of a pro. period. No matter what the references. And any time we broke something, which does happen, we replace it on our nickel, period. That said the next question is Was this job a bid job? Or a time and materials job?


And again you mention sending an e- mail about Green Glue and receiving a reply. with the claim of 75 % sound reduction ? from whom ?

It was a bid job. Ultimately, we had to pull all the sheetrock out. In part to fix the bowed wall, my guy needed to get to the studs, and to properly run electrical, needed to get to studs as well. If we had not done that we would not have discovered he only used 1/3 or 1/2 the green glue he was contracted to use, which would never have known otherwise. Remember, I had him show me the reciept for the green glue he bought, but was not there when he installed it.

Normally I would let anyone try to make it right, and I am likely naive, because I cannot imagine that someone who has experienced my winning personality would want to take advantage of me. These guys simply used up any good will. I mean, they told me they installed green glue in a certain way and didn't, told me they had taped and floated the walls and didn't, violated the electrical code as if it did not exist while telling me it was up to code, and installing a door different from the reciept he showed me, well, I guess i just felt like I could not trust these dudes.

Sorry about confusion on the green glue issue. Got that from Green Glue company engineer type. Have been looking into green glue on this project and have decided to change direction. I am getting the sense that Green Glue is easy to sell, especially since it is simple to apply, but some sources suggest that it is not as helpful as marketing suggests.

I looked at the Green Glue website on resilient channel vs. Green Glue and surprised to find that there did not seem to be a whole lot of difference between the two, at least in terms of STC, noise reduction, etc. In fact, the resilient channel assembly scores higher than an assembly with green glue on one side of the wall. To get better numbers you would have to have Green Glue sandwich on both sides of the studs. That is something I simply cannot do in my project. Again, I may misunderstand this whole thing, but as a guy who has just paid $2000 in tuition for the School of Gettin' Screwed, I am going to stick with stuff I can wrap my head around.

Will go with insulation, resilient channel, USG soundboard, and 5/8" drywall approach. The USG soundboard is not a quietrock and is only marginally more expensive than the sheetrock, and it may make no difference. Figured I would give it a shot.

Any suggestions on what color to pain the room?
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  #23  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thbassbA View Post
It was a bid job. Ultimately, we had to pull all the sheetrock out. In part to fix the bowed wall, my guy needed to get to the studs, and to properly run electrical, needed to get to studs as well. If we had not done that we would not have discovered he only used 1/3 or 1/2 the green glue he was contracted to use, which would never have known otherwise. Remember, I had him show me the reciept for the green glue he bought, but was not there when he installed it.

Normally I would let anyone try to make it right, and I am likely naive, because I cannot imagine that someone who has experienced my winning personality would want to take advantage of me. These guys simply used up any good will. I mean, they told me they installed green glue in a certain way and didn't, told me they had taped and floated the walls and didn't, violated the electrical code as if it did not exist while telling me it was up to code, and installing a door different from the reciept he showed me, well, I guess i just felt like I could not trust these dudes.

Sorry about confusion on the green glue issue. Got that from Green Glue company engineer type. Have been looking into green glue on this project and have decided to change direction. I am getting the sense that Green Glue is easy to sell, especially since it is simple to apply, but some sources suggest that it is not as helpful as marketing suggests.

I looked at the Green Glue website on resilient channel vs. Green Glue and surprised to find that there did not seem to be a whole lot of difference between the two, at least in terms of STC, noise reduction, etc. In fact, the resilient channel assembly scores higher than an assembly with green glue on one side of the wall. To get better numbers you would have to have Green Glue sandwich on both sides of the studs. That is something I simply cannot do in my project. Again, I may misunderstand this whole thing, but as a guy who has just paid $2000 in tuition for the School of Gettin' Screwed, I am going to stick with stuff I can wrap my head around.

Will go with insulation, resilient channel, USG soundboard, and 5/8" drywall approach. The USG soundboard is not a quietrock and is only marginally more expensive than the sheetrock, and it may make no difference. Figured I would give it a shot.

Any suggestions on what color to pain the room?
I was questioning the 75% claim. I am no acoustical engineer but that sounds way exaggerated. Just from the info I gave gleaned from the John Sayers web site www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php, I would guess that those % are going to be more in line with the 2 spaced walls. Which is not always practical.
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  #24  
Old 05-19-2010, 12:28 PM
Ted White Ted White is offline
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There are a few comments / thoughts expressed in this thread that perhaps the OP or others might have interest in knowing more about. These comments roughly follow the posts in this thread.

Room within a room construction is a standard for sound isolating environments. For folks that are not sound isolating rock bands (with a great deal of bass), simply adding more mass (drywall) and *possibly* damping compound over the existing wall will work fine. No sense over-building if the sound levels don’t require it.

Ljguitar summed up the challenges of low frequency (bass) isolation, but not sure you would have a great deal of LF to even deal with. “Mr Fixit eh” also has good information in his posts, however the product in question has a great deal of independent lab data and testimonials all over the internet. The process is “damping” and this process is used my many different manufacturers.

The 75% drop in noise transmission is a pretty open ended speculation. For example, if you treat only one wall, you may have only a 5% reduction, as sound might simply sneak over, under or around the one treated surface.

QuietRock, Supress, SoundBreak and ComfortGuard are all examples of pre-damped (factory-damped)drywall. All are excellent products, and all independently tested. They are made by using standard drywall (like you can buy) with a damping layer applied between the sheets. No mystery. You could save a great deal by simply field installing a damping compound between standard 5/8” drywall. Examples of such compounds are Decibel Drop, Swedak, Green Glue and Quiet Glue. The resulting field assembled wall would be a lower cost and more massive. Whether field assembled or factory assembled, these panels would all be safely screwed back to the stud or joist. With such damped surfaces, there is little concern about screws and “acoustic felt.”

There was a link to a blog that essentially described damping as a meaningless objective. They described one product, however many other products use the same damping technology. Fortunately reams of independent data from numerous labs and damping-based products expose that link as the marketing sham it really is.

Damping and decoupling are two different functions. Resilient channel is a very problematic product, however it is used to decouple framing. Damping materials don’t decouple and decoupling efforts do not damp. Highest performance will come from deploying decoupling, absorption, mass and damping combined, though I don’t think this is warranted in the Ops situation. Just not enough sound to block.

Lastly, when you create a decoupled system, you have essentially created a spring. The goal then is to lower the resonance of that spring, and we do this by adding mass. So soundboard on a resilient system isn’t bringing any real mass to the table. Much better to substitute for another sheet of 5/8” drywall.
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  #25  
Old 05-19-2010, 11:56 PM
7thbassbA 7thbassbA is offline
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I dig it and appreciate your insight.

This studio is more for playing acoustic and electric guitar, and electric bass, for practice and recording. Will not house a band in there, at this time no plans for drums.

I think i have simply come to the realization that Green Glue is not a panacea. After looking at the website and trying to digest the comparisons of various techniques, I may be more confused than when I started.

I will certainly take your advice on swapping out sound board for 5/8".

One of the problems I had not foreseen earlier is that most of the existing sheetrock has to be ripped out anyway, because there was no insulation behind it and needed to pull it to install the proper electrical. There are also areas with large voids behind them dir things like the back of the fireplace.

When I originally looked at green glue my thought was I could keep the existing walls of sheetrock, which is not to be.

So, the question is whether, once down to studs on inside and insulation installed, do I throw sheetrock up then greenglue more sheetrock, or go with resilient channel and hang two sheets of 5/8" sheetrock.

My new contractor guy is comfortable with resilient channel construction and has had good results in the past.

And who knows, if i need more I can always slap some green glue!
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  #26  
Old 05-20-2010, 06:32 AM
Ted White Ted White is offline
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Any one material is not a panacea, as you say. There are many situations where a damping material will do nothing at all. It's all a matter of design.

Decoupling is good, however if I were building a room, I would be looking to get the resonance point as low as possible. Resilient channel doesn't establish a particularly low resonance point, even if installed correctly. Converting the single stud walls to stagered might be worth considering. You'd only lose 1" of wall space and have a more reliable decoupled system.
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2010, 02:02 PM
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...Hell, I am a trial lawyer. Mark My Words: I will wear their guts for garters before this is over.
Quote of the Day!

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  #28  
Old 05-20-2010, 02:03 PM
Ted White Ted White is offline
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Wow... I missed that one. That IS a good one.
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  #29  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:15 PM
7thbassbA 7thbassbA is offline
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Default One further question about hanging guitars.

even with the shoddy work, there was a significant decrease in the level of sound heard in the house, so I am hoping this iteration of the room will be better. At the end of the day, all they really did was throw some extra sheetrock on existing walls.

I am past the point of modifying the plan, both economically and spiritually.

Any suggestion for hanging guitars on the wall so as not to "couple" the decoupled wall?

AND- i appreciate everyone's help. As is so often the case these days, working out these kinds of problems on good forums is a heck of a lot cheaper that hiring a shrink or a hitman.
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  #30  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:25 AM
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So now the basic const. is done. ? Did you put in the carpet you mentioned in OP or is there flooring yet to do ? If done and now it's to the finish stage, you merely need the Lava Lamps, provided the elec. is working! (sorry I could help myself).
Ok so now for treating acoustics within the room itself. OH did you end up with angled corners ? You can make absorbers your self with simple 4" deep picture type frames with Owens Corning 703 insul. and cloth covers to suite your room color de'cor, or you can buy them. pre made. I got mine from GIK
www.gikacoustics.com/products.html
Oh and personally (and this is totally personal taste) I don't care for the aesthetic of gtr's hanging on the wall( reminds me of a store) I like good floor stands instead. But if the wall is your thing then consider the color/s of your gtr's and choose a nice low tone contrast paint to show them off a bit. And or maybe even track lights as spots on the gits.
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-21-2010 at 06:45 AM.
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