Maybe bridge pins matter more than I thought

I love my Martin, you can do anything to it and it still manages to sound good. But I want it to sound its best.

It was time for a string change so I put on Martin SP Lifespan 11s (just to see how the lighter strings would feel, I like bending) and put back in the original plastic bridge pins. Why? Because the Colosi bone pins don't quite fit; they stick up a bit too far. The guitar still sounded good, but not great. The tone thinned out and lost character.

I put up with that for exactly one day and took them off and tossed them. I put back on the exact same strings in 12s and the tone was great again. But I didn't think it was quite as good as it was. I put in some other Colosi bone pins that were a bit undersized and the guitar took on this kind of hollow sound on some notes, which told me that under-sized pins are not a smart idea, so out they came. I put back in the too-big ones and the tone was superb again. I guess I'll just have to sand them down a bit.

I swapped the plastic pins in once more and then back out and yes, there's a difference in tone that I can hear. I have always been in the camp that any tone change from bridge pins would be quite subtle, but in this case, while not a huge difference, it's a noticeable improvement, one that I can markedly hear with my ears.

[Imbler]

Originally Posted by Frozen Rat

I love my Martin, you can do anything to it and it still manages to sound good. But I want it to sound its best.

It was time for a string change so I put on Martin SP Lifespan 11s (just to see how the lighter strings would feel, I like bending) and put back in the original plastic bridge pins. Why? Because the Colosi bone pins don't quite fit; they stick up a bit too far. The guitar still sounded good, but not great. The tone thinned out and lost character.

I put up with that for exactly one day and took them off and tossed them. I put back on the exact same strings in 12s and the tone was great again. But I didn't think it was quite as good as it was. I put in some other Colosi bone pins that were a bit undersized and the guitar took on this kind of hollow sound on some notes, which told me that under-sized pins are not a smart idea, so out they came. I put back in the too-big ones and the tone was superb again. I guess I'll just have to sand them down a bit.

I swapped the plastic pins in once more and then back out and yes, there's a difference in tone that I can hear. I have always been in the camp that any tone change from bridge pins would be quite subtle, but in this case, while not a huge difference, it's a noticeable improvement, one that I can markedly hear with my ears.

Interesting. I'm not doubting your ears as you didn't go in expecting much of a change yet you hear it. I wonder what the mechanism would be. I know the weight would have an impact. Are there other theories as to why it would change the tone?

[MrDB]

I changed to come Colosi bone pins on my 000-28 when I changed strings a couple of weeks ago.

Sometimes I think I can hear a difference in the clarity of the bass, sometimes I think I'm just imagining things.

Of course I'm 65, with Tinnitus, and some hearing loss so maybe I'm not the person to state if there is/is not any difference.

[Sands]

I recently replaced the plastic pins with bone on a vintage Guild F-30. It made a huge difference in my opinion.

To prove it, you would have to do a side by side audio comparison with new strings, each time, playing the same thing with exactly same technique. Probably not exactly doable.

However if one concludes that the nut material matters, the saddle material matters, and then considers the string is held against the bridge with whatever the pin is made of then it stands to reason that pin material matters.

Drop a bone pin on your bench, drop a plastic one. Very different.

My conclusion: Bone nut, bone saddle, bone pins. It matters. Definitely.

Originally Posted by Imbler

Interesting. I'm not doubting your ears as you didn't go in expecting much of a change yet you hear it. I wonder what the mechanism would be. I know the weight would have an impact. Are there other theories as to why it would change the tone?

I don't have any real theories. In fact it defies logic that it should matter much at all. Anything past the saddle just shouldn't matter that much, right? I'm a bit surprised myself that I can actually hear a tonal difference.

[byudzai]

I wonder if the real difference is the way the pins change the contact with the saddle. If different pin shapes/sizes create different angles of contact where the strings are pulled over the saddle I could def see that affecting sound.

Originally Posted by byudzai

I wonder if the real difference is the way the pins change the contact with the saddle. If different pin shapes/sizes create different angles of contact where the strings are pulled over the saddle I could def see that affecting sound.

One thing I feel confident in saying is that during the process I learned that bridge pins that don't seat snugly cause weirdness. If that can be the case then I suppose it's not so much of stretch to think that different materials will have different effects.

[Jasper64]

I have typically used ebony in most of my guitars and plastic a couple of times but I had Martin put bone pins w/ paua pearl dots (3.0mm) on my custom. Collectively the sound is incredible but I can't pinpoint any one thing to the pins making a difference. I do know however that bone pins are a lot more durable if for no other reason and I love their look...

[Alan Carruth]

The saddle is part of the signal path between the strings and the top, so the hardness of the material could make a difference. The nut also needs to be hard to stop the string properly, so that could have an effect, at least on the open string notes. The pins are not in the signal path, so far as I've been able to find out; they're behind the saddle. If the string is vibrating behind the saddle you've got a problem that changing the pins won't solve, and you'll hear it.

Going from plastic to bone pins adds about 5-6 grams of mass, which is about 1/5 or more of the mass of the bridge itself. That's not a negligible change. It's enough by itself to alter the 'impedance' of the system, changing the way the sound 'leaks' out of the string and into the top. That can be enough to alter the tone. It's also enough to change the 'main top' resonant pitch a little bit. If that started out close to the fundamental of a played pitch the sound of that note would be changed noticeably by a shift in the pitch of the top. I've worked on steel string guitars that would react noticeably to a two gram change in mass at the bridge, so what you've done is not negligible.

OTOH, the devil is in the details. Some guitars are more sensitive to such changes than others, in part because of the way the resonances line up. This is why some folks get a noticeable change when they swap in new pins, while others don't get any change, or end up not liking the change they got.

[Eso612]

Originally Posted by byudzai

I wonder if the real difference is the way the pins change the contact with the saddle. If different pin shapes/sizes create different angles of contact where the strings are pulled over the saddle I could def see that affecting sound.

I think this is right. This affects the more the sound fo sure.

Saying that what happens after the saddle is not important is completely wrong. The sound depends on how the endball touches the soundboard.

The pins have their part in the sound. It's not a theory. If you try you hear it. Ebony, plastic, bone, rosewood, brass.... everyone have a different tone. Sometimes it is subtle sometimes more important. But it is never dramatic.
When you have worked on important things like strings, saddle and nut, right hand technique, fingernails (or fingerpicks), then you can refine the tone with the bridge pins.
You have to experiment to find the right ones for your guitar and your taste.
On my main guitar I use buffalo horn pins. They have by far the more consistent tone.
On others I prefer ebony and rosewood.

[Eso612]

Ok, Alan Carruth explained that perfectly

[twg1996]

I dont know why but IMHO i so think they affect tone...check out this video of some bridge pin comparisons!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnhHV2ogyWE

[mz-s]

I like the galaith pins from Stewmac. I've tried bone but didn't like how they kept chipping bits into my guitar. Galaith in any event is denser and harder than ABS. Not as dense and hard as bone or tusq, but better than ABS.

Cheap upgrade, sonic change varies from guitar to guitar, who knows why it happens but it does.

[SteveBurt]

Originally Posted by twg1996

I dont know why but IMHO i so think they affect tone...check out this video of some bridge pin comparisons!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnhHV2ogyWE

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't hear any difference

[Pura Vida]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

The saddle is part of the signal path between the strings and the top, so the hardness of the material could make a difference. The nut also needs to be hard to stop the string properly, so that could have an effect, at least on the open string notes. The pins are not in the signal path, so far as I've been able to find out; they're behind the saddle. If the string is vibrating behind the saddle you've got a problem that changing the pins won't solve, and you'll hear it.

Going from plastic to bone pins adds about 5-6 grams of mass, which is about 1/5 or more of the mass of the bridge itself. That's not a negligible change. It's enough by itself to alter the 'impedance' of the system, changing the way the sound 'leaks' out of the string and into the top. That can be enough to alter the tone. It's also enough to change the 'main top' resonant pitch a little bit. If that started out close to the fundamental of a played pitch the sound of that note would be changed noticeably by a shift in the pitch of the top. I've worked on steel string guitars that would react noticeably to a two gram change in mass at the bridge, so what you've done is not negligible.

OTOH, the devil is in the details. Some guitars are more sensitive to such changes than others, in part because of the way the resonances line up. This is why some folks get a noticeable change when they swap in new pins, while others don't get any change, or end up not liking the change they got.

This may be the best explanation of bridge pins' influence on sound that I've read. Thanks for the explanation, Alan.