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  #16  
Old 11-28-2014, 12:39 PM
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The nut action should be nearly zero, just barely clearing the first fret, and you need to check all the strings.


It will be 3-4 days minimum before the new strings stretch in - you are going to go nuts messing with anything until that is complete. They are stretching as you play right now.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2014, 12:54 PM
mchalebk mchalebk is offline
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Many years ago, I was taking classical guitar at a local university. I had some intonation issues on my high E string. My instructor asked if I tuned the string up to concert pitch when I installed it. I indicated i did just like I did with my steel string liars, which was immediately tune up to pitch.

His suggestion was to only tune the string halfway up to pitch day 1, let it sit over night, then tune it the rest of way up. What was happening, he said, was that the string was not stretching evenly. Apparently, this is not a common problem with steel strings, but it is a common problem with nylon strings. In other words, the string, when tuned up to pitch too quickly, stretches unevenly and doesn't maintain a constant thickness of the entire length of the string.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2014, 01:18 PM
815C 815C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
There are many recommended ways to tune a guitar. This is not one of them.

In short, here is why. Harmonics belong to Pythagorean tuning - whole-number divisions of the string; fretted notes are designed to be equal temperament - each semitone is related to the twelfth root of two, not a whole number. The only places where the pitches (frequencies/string lengths) of these tunings are the same is at octaves and unisons: every other note is different in pitch.

If you are tuning to harmonics that are not an octave (or multiple of an octave) you are mixing apples and oranges and you'll be chasing your tail. That is, you'll get the non-octave harmonics in tune with each other, but when you fret notes they will be out of tune. That's the physics of it. Tune anyway you like that does not involve tuning to non-octave harmonics.
I'm not following you. Aren't all the harmonics in the tuning method I shared using octaves or unisons?
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2014, 01:28 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achase4u View Post
Ok so - A string

1st - 2.2 cents sharp
2nd - 1.1 cents flat
3rd - 5 cents flat
4th - 8 cents flat
5th - 9 cents flat
6th - 11 cents flat
7th - 9 cents flat
8th - 12 cents flat
9th - 13 cents flat
10th -16.7 cents flat
11th - 4 cents sharp
12th - 5 cents sharp

The Low E is quite flat from 1st to 5th - then 5th up is great.

So all the strings at the 12th are good.
Without similar measurements, we can't deal with the low E.

Looking at the A string and its values tells us a lot of what we need to know about the A string.

First, the A string is too high at the nut. Hence, the first several frets play sharp, progressively less so, relative to the others. One test of string height at the nut is to play the open string - A in this case - a little harder than the hardest you would play it during normal playing. It should just begin to buzz against the first fret. If not, the string is higher than it needs to be at the nut, which has implications for intonation.

Second, as you've measured them the general trend is that the notes on the A string play flat. (Likely, if you lower the string at the nut, the first few frets will be similarly flat.) The position that the string breaks over the nut affects the pitch of the fretted notes equally. Thus, moving the breaking point over the nut shifts the trend upwards or downwards - flat or sharp. In your case, it appears that the string breaks over the nut too close to the first fret. you can move the breaking point either by putting a shim between the end of the fingerboard and the nut, or by scalloping the fingerboard-face of the nut locally for the A string. (Keep in mind that each string may require a different position.) Essentially, you are into nut compensation, or, if less invasive, repositioning the nut. I'd start with moving the nut about 1 to 2 mm away from the end of the fingerboard. Doing so should lower the pitch of all of the fretted notes by an equal amount, ideally, for your measurements about 10 cents or so. It is trial and error to move the breaking point by the correct amount. Once you have that so that each of the fretted notes is at or nearer zero cents off, you can look at compensation at the saddle.

Third, saddle compensation affects the pitch of the fretted noted differently, unlike nut compensation that affects all of the fretted notes equally. Saddle compensation corrects the "drift" of the pitch of fretted notes. As one plays up the neck - towards the body - the notes typically become progressively sharper. Saddle compensation corrects that. Again, it is trial and error to obtain just the right amount of compensation that negates the drift on that instrument on that string.

Generally, the amount of compensation required for each string is different - at both the nut and the saddle. Depending upon how close you want the intonation to be, you can move the nut, changing all of the breaking points at the nut, or intonate for each string. Ditto for the saddle.

Last, of course the 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret fretted note will be the same: you set them to be. This is an example where one can set those to be exactly the same and still have awful intonation. Setting them the same ensures that the pitch of that fretted note is right. It doesn't guarantee anything about the pitches produced at the rest of the frets.

Ideally, you would create a "map" of the errors on all strings at all frets. You could then use that map to plan what needs to be done. For example, will simply moving the nut work well to meet the intonation requirements for all 6 strings, or will you need to compensate individually? Generally, the object is to "optimize" for minimum error (cents out) the pitches across the entire range of the instrument. That can be a lot of work. If you have the time and inclination, and sufficient acuity of hearing that it matters to you, you'll find it worth the effort.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 11-28-2014 at 01:39 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2014, 04:05 PM
achase4u achase4u is offline
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Fascinating. Thanks for all the posts. My electrics seem ok - and of course they are easy to intonate to an extent with individual saddles. I don't have much issue with them...

I don't know anything about nylons - so this is all interesting to me. Maybe I will try putting on the strings halfway to pitch the first day etc. I guess this means that classical players hate changing strings haha. Do you guys just leave them on allot longer?

Here is a question. I know that steel string guitars achieve lower action due to the smaller elliptical pattern the string makes with all that tension. But, despite lower action, they are still sometimes difficult to play due to the tension.

So conversely, nylon string guitars are lower tension, needing higher action to prevent buzzing from the bigger vibration pattern.

However, is this an even trade? Or are Nylons just easier to play despite higher action, in general? I have tendonitis issues(partly from many injuries to my arms) and I'm always looking for a way to play easier. Jazz sounds good on a nylon stringer to me.
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  #21  
Old 11-28-2014, 04:48 PM
GHS GHS is offline
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Less tension, much easier to play. Latin jazz style ( samba, bosa nova) where just written for this style guitar.
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2014, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GHS View Post
Less tension, much easier to play. Latin jazz style ( samba, bosa nova) where just written for this style guitar.
I find them the same - especially when they are set up correctly. Most come "out of the box" pretty high, and some classical players prefer that.

I do everything I can to get them tuned in perfectly for me. Typically about 3.5mm bass and 2.5 treble give or take a little. And as noted above very minimal action at the nut.
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2014, 05:15 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achase4u View Post
Maybe I will try putting on the strings halfway to pitch the first day etc. I guess this means that classical players hate changing strings haha. Do you guys just leave them on allot longer?
Every player has his or her favourite way of restringing. A common approach is to tune them a little sharp and grab the string and really yank on it to stretch it.

It's no worse than changing steel strings, though it takes a day or two for the nylon strings to appreciably stop stretching. You get used to it.

Quote:
... steel string guitars ....despite lower action, they are still sometimes difficult to play due to the tension.
Not so much: if the action is set appropriately, they can be set up to be easy to play.

Quote:
So conversely, nylon string guitars are lower tension, needing higher action to prevent buzzing from the bigger vibration pattern.
Not so much. Classical players, playing with traditional classical technique and trying to fill a concert hall play very heavily compared to most steel string players/fingerpickers. Those players, typically, will want a higher action. For the average "cross-over" player, playing steel string on a nylon-strung guitar, the guitar can be setup with quite low action.

Quote:
Jazz sounds good on a nylon stringer to me.
Good jazz sounds good played on anything.
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  #24  
Old 11-28-2014, 08:23 PM
achase4u achase4u is offline
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"Not so much. Classical players, playing with traditional classical technique and trying to fill a concert hall play very heavily compared to most steel string players/fingerpickers. Those players, typically, will want a higher action. For the average "cross-over" player, playing steel string on a nylon-strung guitar, the guitar can be setup with quite low action."

Interesting. That sounds true. I can't imagine trying to fill a hall with an acoustic or even nylon. Yikes.

"Good jazz sounds good played on anything."

Of course it does. As we have seen throughout the years with many musicians.

I was just speaking mainly to the fact that I enjoy the mellower tone of nylon acoustic vs steel string. Just a personal opinion.
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