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#61
11-15-2006, 03:19 PM
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Ones that come to mind readily - - Sigma (under the Martin cover) - Yairi (for Alvarez) - Yamaha Classical - Yamaha Acoustic - Michael Chapdelaine has owned at least one handbuilt from the Yamaha factory - And I forget does Eastman make one? - Breedlove Atlas series (Korean) So how many American manufacturers do we see that are building all solid guitars who also dabble in the laminate (beginner) models?
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Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them… Last edited by ljguitar; 11-15-2006 at 03:33 PM. Reason: more info pertaining to the original thought of the thread... 
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#62
11-15-2006, 04:21 PM
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The Japanese have been making solid wood fine high end
guitars for over a decade now that I know of and maybe] longer. Some Japanese custom builders are very artistic and compelling. It is not that japanese and chinese and Korean manufacturers can not build fine guitars it is just that they choose not to apparently except on very small scale. Not sure why. They lead the classical guitar bulders in quality tone for the buck and many of them rival the best classicals around. They have the abiltiy to build quality. IMO where they fail , is the buidlers have no idea what makes up a really good tone so they can't possibly build it into a guitar. You have to know what the goal is . The other thing is they have no concept of our traditions. That Blueridge even has been accepted is amazing as they just dont have the timbre's for me but I see grassers going to them in droves. So be it. The end of the day I'm staying with the American guitars , as if it ain't broke don't fix it. There is no HYPE in a good American Guitar. No one sells martins and Collings putting them in the lap of a naked woman after all. LOL
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Ray Collings DS2H MhA "Bubba" Collings OM 2H "Colleen" Collings "Herb Special" Eastman AR610CE-CS " Jazz " Martin 000 28c MH "Merle" Dudley Classical Dudley" Baby Taylor "Baby Hoggy"
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#63
11-15-2006, 04:49 PM
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I will also say that I have not seen an Asian-built guitar that competes with a Collings D2H. Why? Not because they couldn't do it, rather because that level does not fit into the Oriental manufacturing mindset. They are much more interested in manufacturing at price points where the volume is significant. Here is an example. In the late 1980's, CD burners for computers were just starting to be available. The price point was close to $2,000 ... certainly not something that everyone ran out and bought. Mitsumi, a manufacturer in Japan, had the technology to build a high quality CDR that would sell retail for around $700. It was not just a theory ... I had the product in my hand, and used it in my computer. But they would not build it. Why? Because they did not feel as though even with that price advantage, there was enough market to justify the manufacturing space. They were much more interested in building the least expensive floppy disk drives and CD-Roms ... something they did very well, and were very successful with. In the last few years, they have shown us that they can build and deliver a superior product in the lower price ranges. While Blueridge (an American company building in China) has built a few Brazilian Rosewood models (i.e. the 280 series), I will be very surprised if we ever see Asian manufacturers devoting much effort to competing in the high-end market. American companies building in China is just the tip of the iceberg. What will be interesting to watch for is the possibility of a Chinese company building guitars for export to the US. I can assure you, if that happens the margins will be lower, and the competition will be taken to a new level.
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#64
11-15-2006, 05:35 PM
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I still think it's possible some Chinese luthiers (or large plant experts or specialists) might band together to make a "small(er) shop" more boutique-like brand of guitar. Something that actually WOULD compete with the comparable shops here (SCGC, Pantheon, and small shop luthiers) at 1/2 the price.
Imagine a Chinese built guitar with top quality woods, tuners, boned, not overly "blinged" and essentially hand assembled at, say, 2k give or take. Imagine it had an "American sounding" name, and started to get raves from APM and other acoustic guitar circles. Imagine handling one, and finding impeccable joinery, no glue drops, scalloped and forward shifted bracing, tasteful yet complex rosettes, UV cured poly finishes, great mahogany or rosewood, or maple; wood bindings; $1750.00 street (or less). A few "icons" grabbing up some to play on tour. You tell me that wouldn't be seductive, and even make some sense. The sound and quality of a Goodall, or Bourgeois, or high-end Martin, or Taylor at less than half the price. I really think this may happen, and sooner than many think.
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"It takes all kinds to make a world...including the kinds who think only their kind belong in it." (unknown) "Next To the Word of God, music deserves the highest praise." (Martin Luther) 1992 Taylor 855 2000 Deering Sierra 2009 Recording King RD-16SN ~ "utility" 2009 Martin HD-28
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#65
11-16-2006, 03:06 AM
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You guys spent a lot of time talking about innovation, quality, etc. etc but I think you missed the most salient point. American guitar manufacturers build the best guitars because of a cultural understanding of what a guitar is supposed to sound like.
What do we all talk about in choosing a guitar? Tone. We stress how it sounds above all else. The American builders live in our guitar culture so they both shape and match our expectations. The asians can build some technically excellent instruments but they lack a certain intrinsic sound quality. This is not always a show stopper because they can be very good instruments. Being a guitar player who dabbles with the mandolin, I am very happy with my Chinese built Eastman mandolin. It's built very well and sounds good but not as good as the 5x priced Collings and Gibsons. I'm just not going to pay that kind of money for a secondary instrument. You can see the same sort of cultural preference when it comes to nylon strung guitars. The primary choice is Spanish from those who know. Another is in stereo equipment. (Remember the black boxes you used before the iPod?) While the primary source of stereo equipment is Japanese the speakers of choice seem more likely to be American (or European for those who specialize in classical music). I'm no expert in this field. These are observations of long standing. For the car commenters consider this question. Would the Big 3 have been better off if they had developed cars to American tastes with Japanese quality instead of trying to build Japanese type cars with American quality? It's good to have a philisophical discussion that does not revolve around politics. Thanks for the thread.
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George Wilson Weber Bighorn Martin D-18 Del McCoury
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#66
11-16-2006, 05:52 AM
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Here was a post by Eric Schoenberg on another forum :-
"One comment (about the book and the thread) is that these days the luthiers have been put on an amazing pedestal, which in my view is too high. There are millions of great craftsmen out there in many fields. Many of the contributors to this thread may be outstanding in their field - like Wayne who might be standing there right now! I've worked with a number of luthiers, and they have all ended up being extraodinary builders. I don't think any are better than the others, just different. They have all been put into the vintage Martin track (by me): it is a startlingly great focus for creating great instruments. I just happened on it by actually being the player among all the luthiers— I'd grown up playing them and realizing the amazing qualities that had been lost in modern building. Other luthiers have either tried to reinvent the wheel or not gotten the true aspects that the vintage qualities supply for advanced playing. Of course, exept Wayne Henderson, who does truly understand the vintage ethic, at least for his style of playing. Back when my first partner, Dana Bourgeois, decided to move on—he was interested in more mass-production—I got some great advice from Kirk Sands, a great friend and super luthier. He told me - there's no magic in guitar building - I could even do it myself. Since then, I've worked with people who've had good woodworking skills but lacked the knowledge of what makes a guitar really tick for advanced players. They've all turned into great builders. Even Martin, who is way better than they were in the mid-eighties when I started with them. Just look out—if they keep going in their current direction, they could end up pretty amazing. I don't necessarily agree with all their choices, but still: watch out for them. Each of the builders I've worked with have brought their own touches—you can't compare them to each other, but I believe their results are equal in quality in many ways. Be careful of your approach to luthiery - you might create a situation that's summed up in a joke I just heard: What's the difference between God and a doctor? God doesn't think he's a doctor!" If there is anyone who knows what he is talking about where it comes to developing the ability to build new guitars that capture the vitnage American Martinn guitars, it is Eric Schoenberg. He helped several of the top luthiers of today learn how to build vintage sounding guitars. Unless I am mistaken Julius Borges for example was a cabinet maker before he became a top luthier, and he learned the ropes with schoenberg too... I don't think there is anything "cultural" about the abiltiy of Amreican luthires to produce great guitars. The guitar is also very popular in Asian countries like mine. It is a matter of an available local market able to provide the demand, exposure, opportunity to learn, and a sense of excellence. Give the Chinese or Japanese or any other race for that matter the chance to learn and a market who will suipport the luthiery business, and you will eventually get world class foreigners building guitars every bit as good or even better. We see this in Takashta and in Matsuda who emigrated to USA to learn, and are now producing very admired guitars, for example. We still dont have the market well heeled enough to support a generation of full time luthiers building guitars - but just you wait and see, times are a'changin'... Last edited by airguitarro; 11-16-2006 at 06:15 AM.
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#67
11-16-2006, 09:55 AM
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Interesting thread of responses...
Wow! This has been a funthread to read with its many turns away from the topic and question at hand and subsequent return to it.
I've been surprized by some of the answers and even shocked by a few, but there's been some reaching to make a point. "Why are American guitars better?" Hmmm....let's see....if the guitars from any country are compared to those made in others from equal quality materials, by equally qualified and skilled crafstmen using tools and equipment of equal quality, a blanket statement like this is more rediculous than most America guitar builders may choose to admit. It's like saying, "The Japanese ot European builders just don't have the ability or aptitiude to do it as well as we do." and that's just not true. Take a guitar in any specific price range and you'll more likely find higher quality alternatives to American made pieces coming out of Asia until you reach the higher end of the pricing schedule in both production and small shop categories. Lowden, McIlroy, Emerald, Avalon, Yairi and other builders that hail from homelands outside of the good old USA arebuilding guitars of quality equal to or better to some or all of their American made counterparts. Ask a Canadian player where the best guitars are built an they'll shoot you a short list of Canadian builders who are building pieces of the same quality as anyhting coming out of American shops. There's nothing in the water, in the educational process culture and certainly not in the work ethic here in America that would validate a statement like this. A gret product can come out of any shop...anywhere. I personally prefer the Mexican or Japanese Strats currently being produced by Fender. It appears to me that a more strict quality control standard is observed in those factories than with the USA made Strats. I've repaired and set up hundreds and have found this to be the case many times. The joke made earlier in this thread say it all, "What's the difference between God and a doctor?" "God doesn't think he's a doctor." Substitute God with a North American luthier and the joke can still be relevant an funny in some circles. I've had guys, even recently, come across as self proclaimed difinitive authorities on lutherie and specific areas in it like brace voicing, vibration transduction and others. When asked how much actual experience they have in the craft, they basically said none or very little compared to many others who have deep experience in it. A few people had pumped their egos and they continued pumping them themselves until they became bloated and even distorted. They began to believe their own press and promotion too much. There is alot of brand loyalty that is blind and it's as common in the custom commission guitar market as in the largest production sales. A guitarist will just chirp out their favorite builder's name when they're asked who's best...more like a parrot than an experienced and discerning guitar buyer. Their loyalty is based, many times, on an experience they once had or, as many times, what their favorite player or favorite magazine says. Be careful not to dismiss builders from other countries as having the capability of being the absolute best. You never know, a small shop is some middle eastern country could be producing what are, in fact, the best instruments in the world, but only the folks that live within a 50 mile radius to their shop even know that they exists. No mags to place ads in, no famous artists to give free guitars to in exchange for endorsements, no beautiful website....just building and selling them out of their small shop. It's foolish to to think any particular country is building the best of anything. Public perception tends to be swayed more by marketing and product visibility than real life experience with the products and the guitar industry is no exception. Good thread. Regards, Kevin Gallagher
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#68
11-16-2006, 10:16 AM
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The United States produces the best steel-string guitars not because their craftsmanship is better but because we define steel-string guitars and all builders, regardless of country of origin, have to build to our standard if they want to be commercially successful. Foreign steel-string guitars are an interpretation of what their builders think is the American standard. American luthiers are the standard.
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#69
11-16-2006, 10:49 AM
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#70
11-16-2006, 12:07 PM
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I agree Herb....
American steel string guitars have been theindustry standard for generations. My only problem with standards being viewed as such simply for standard's sake is that they can pigeon hole the efforts of builders in some ways.
Thank God that auto manufacturers around the world didn't lock themselves into the designs or methods of American auto makers. If they had, we would never have been able to enjoy the design and performance innovations of all of the foreign makers that pushed the industry farther than it may have ever gone. Just because a particular country or region established the standard doesn't mean that it can't be improved upon or abandoned completely to acheive equal or even better results through completely different means. I don't think that what is the accepted standard is necessarily the best, but only what may have once been. Builders all over the world are producing incredible guitars in every price range and their success has been able to comr from getting away from their willingness to innovate and boldly stray from what is standard or expected. Just my opinion, Kevin Gallagher
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#71
11-16-2006, 12:41 PM
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I think it's a matter of craftmanship and tradition. America, Canada and Europe have luthiers that build guitars from scratch and know every nuance of how their wood selection and construction will affect the sound and playability. The Asian countries don't have this tradition and experience - the guitar is simply not an Asian musical instrument.
They are very good at copying and mass producing, but there's no money in a single craftsman (or small groups of them) building guitars by hand. With lower price points, (say less than $500), the playing field is leveled since mass production and shortcuts are required to produce a guitar for that amount. IMO, a $400 Japanese guitar sounds as good (or better) than a $400 American built guitar. There is no doubt in my mind that a luthier in Asia can build a quality guitar. Why not? Last edited by flyingace; 11-16-2006 at 12:48 PM.
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#72
11-16-2006, 12:46 PM
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Kevin, you make some very salient points. The singular biggest hurdle which any offshore manufacturer has to overcome is market acceptance. Sadly I still read a great deal of unsubstantiated, jingoistic prejudice against anything not made in America, regardless of its intrinsic merits, no matter what the product.
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#73
11-16-2006, 01:45 PM
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I do not agree that brand loyalty is behind my love of some
Martin and Collings guitars. I can hear feel and see the real differences in them and any other guitar I have had the chance to play. There is no blindness in my view for I have indeed bought many of the Asian offings for the chance to experience other tones and vibes and have , so far found them lacking in one way or other. I could say the same for many American makers. I have played some really expensive American guitars that left me cold, but at the end of the day every guitar in my arsenal is American and that can not be by accident. Even my Strats are very special American standards and not every year is a good one , like many things in wood there are better years . I would not argue though that for most people a Mexican Strat is more than good enough,but someone who plays one of my early 1999 specials would not wish to trade either of them for a mexican strat once played and heard through the same amp. So what do I conclude. For me I have found what i'm looking for in Domestic content all the way. I do own a chinese built Gretch jazz box, in case a breakin happens the crooks will go for it first with it's shiny chrome and paint. LOL Anyone who can not see the superiority of a high end domenstic guitar when played by them beside something at half the price SHOULD by all means save himself some dough and buy the cheaper one. I worked hard to save and afford to buy a nice Collings or Martin and I just honestly believe the value is there for me...............
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Ray Collings DS2H MhA "Bubba" Collings OM 2H "Colleen" Collings "Herb Special" Eastman AR610CE-CS " Jazz " Martin 000 28c MH "Merle" Dudley Classical Dudley" Baby Taylor "Baby Hoggy"
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#74
11-16-2006, 02:15 PM
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I wonder if the Japanese or Chinese actually built high-end guitars with equal sound and playabilty, would Americans buy them? I think acceptance would be extremely slow, even if the price were less. Acoustic guitars are just one of those items. I liken it to motorcycles - where Harley still dominates in light of faster, lighter and cheaper Japanese rides. There are zillions of riders who would simply not own anything else and can't figure out why you would even ask.
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#75
11-16-2006, 02:26 PM
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Even an American company that tries to redefine the standard of how a steel-string guitar should sound has an uphill battle. There was a recent thread about how Taylors don't sound as good as some other brands because they supposedly use substandard spruce inorder to save money. Rather than accept that the Taylor sound has been deliberately acheived because it was the tone that Bob Taylor sought, there are many who assume that they don't sound like more traditional brands because of some deficiency in design or materials. Overseas automobile manufacturers, are successful because they better understand the demands of the American consumer than does Detroit. The guitar industry is different because we create the most popular music and luthiers generally have a more intimate connection to American musicians than overseas luthiers. Of course there are exceptions. Quote:
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