Advise please: classical vs folk

[JanVigne]

A guitar is anything you wish it to be. You can certainly play classical music on a steel string guitar and you can play folk, roots, blues, etc on a nylon string guitar; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhe6x...eature=related

The last time I checked, there are no guitar police to come get you if you cross genres with your instrument. I'm old enough to remember the time when a "folk" guitar simply meant you didn't need to plug it into AC to be heard; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77VUY...eature=related


I'm also old enough to think rules are there for breaking.



If you listen to the first clip and then listen to this clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Wdu...eature=related, you'll hear a broadly defined difference between the same player on first a nylon string guitar and then on a steel stringed instrument. More important to your day to day playing, you can examine the difference in the width of the fretboard on both types of guitars in those links as well as the amount of string spacing provided at the first fret and at the sound hole position for your picking hand. There are some wide fretboards on steel string guitars meant specifically for fingerstyle playing but most dreadnought style steel strings will tend toward a thinner, less chunky neck profile than you would find on any classical. As mentioned, string tension is less on the nylon strings though a steel string guitar can be done up with light gauge strings designed for flexibility. Flexibility in your hands is probably more important than in the strings as you will develop the strength to play either type of guitar with practice. You can further your understanding of how each type of guitar differs by listening to a few examples provided here; http://www.acousticguitarmagazine.co...views-526.aspx and here; http://www.guitarvideos.com/styles-1/fingerstyle

Taylor has a nice division of styles which might help you understand what you're looking for in a certain type of instrument; http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic The division between manufacturers who produce mostly steel string and mostly nylon string instruments is better clarified, I hope, here; http://www.guitarcenter.com/Classica...ar,New-Gear.gc Staying within "classical guitars" you're likely to find a few "Flamenco" style gutars which, for now, you can simply lump in with a generic nylon strung instrument.



You'll see the market is dominated by steel string instruments. When you're browsing the Vestapol site, another generic way to tell a steel vs nylon string instrument is to look at the headstock. While steel string guitars can have open/slotted headstocks I know of no classical/nylon string guitar that does not have an open/slotted headstock design; http://search.yahoo.com/search?.part...20guitar&type=


"small guitars are for children under 10-12 years old
children 12 to 120 years old should play on 4/4 guitars"

That is, of course, bullhockey. Adults don't even require all six strings; http://www.broadwaymusicco.com/Harmony9.htm let alone "4/4 guitars".

The guitar body should fit the player. Period! Classical guitars are generally slightly small bodied instruments while the ubiquitous dreadnought steel strings are larger and meant to deliver a sound which stands out above the other players. Currently, there is a shift towards small(er) bodied steel string guitars.


The two variations on guitars, nylon vs steel, are tuned identically for most performances. The fretboards are layed out in similar fashion though it is more common for the nylon strung guitar to have the fretboard join the body at the twelfth fret, though there are no hard and fast rules here. If you learn to play one type of guitar, your skills will easily transfer to virtually any other guitar. I would say though, most classical players have a fairly good grounding in music theory along with an ability to read musical notation that isn't always found in a steel string player.

The top plate of a guitar will have a direct influence on the tone of the instrument. While there are more than just spruce and cedar to choose from in a classical style instrument, those are the two most commonly found woods. They do sound somewhat unalike and you should play any guitar before you invest your money. While there are some very good laminated woods used in all parts of a mid-priced guitar, if you can afford it, spend the extra money for a solid wood topped guitar. The description of the guitar should make it clear the guitar uses "solid" wood for the top while the sides and back may be what are termed "select" - which translates to "laminated". A solid top should begin around $250 and go upward while a solid wood guitar (all parts are solid wood rather than only the top) should begin at sightly above $1k.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yflWG-e38OU

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"small guitars are for children under 10-12 years old
children 12 to 120 years old should play on 4/4 guitars"

That is, of course, bullhockey. Adults don't even require all six strings; http://www.broadwaymusicco.com/Harmony9.htm let alone "4/4 guitars".

.

i was talking about classical guitars
i personally haven't seen a performer of classical guitar with a 3/4 guitar however small he was

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by Odie1974

Here I have to disagree - good quality strings (Savarez, D'Addario, etc) on a good quality guitar (with good tuners) do not go out of tune that much. Certainly not always and not after every song And a beginner does not play very long songs anyways...

Yes, they tend to go out of tune when they are new, but after a break in period they stay in tune OK. And it's not advisable to stretch nylons manually as they are quite sensitive to that. It is better to allow them to break in by themselves.

And nylons last longer than steel...

Compared to steel strings, nylon strings do a poor job of staying in tune. Yes, once they’re stretched out, they won’t need to be tuned after every song, but they will need to be tuned more often than a steel string guitar. Furthermore, how many beginners are going to buy a “good quality” classical guitar? Good classical guitars cost much more than good steel string guitars (for instance, you can buy a professional quality steel string guitar for under $1000, but you’ll spend many $1000s for a professional quality classical).

I could also see a beginner stringing up their classical to pitch immediately and having the strings stretch non-uniformly and having intonation issues (I learned this one first hand). I have never had this issue with steel strings.

I maintain that tuning can be a real frustration for a beginner and steel string guitars stay in tune much better than nylon. If someone only wants to play fingerstyle (and in particular classical guitar), then a classical guitar makes sense. Otherwise, I think most beginners would be better off with a steel string guitar.

[grampa]

I have a Gibson F-25. It's a steel string guitar with the dimensions of a classical - flat and wide neck, 2" at the nut and 12 frets. It's like playing a classical guitar with steel strings.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

Furthermore, how many beginners are going to buy a “good quality” classical guitar? Good classical guitars cost much more than good steel string guitars (for instance, you can buy a professional quality steel string guitar for under $1000, but you’ll spend many $1000s for a professional quality classical).

there is no need for a beginner to buy a professional guitar.
He can start with a $400 guitar and he can take guitar degree ,which means 6-8 years studying the instrument, with a $1500 guitar!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Jamesguitar

As I understand it, classical guitars and folk guitars are different in that the former are easier for "fingering" playing style.

Hi James...
I teach fingerstyle guitar. A classical guitar is not easier to learn fingerstyle on.

The real question which after reading the thread I don't think has been addressed is:

What kind of music do you want to learn to play primarily?

If it's classical music from scores, then you will want/need a classical guitar and classical teacher.

If you want to play more modern music, then I suggest a steel string guitar and a contemporary teacher.

I don't believe classical and steel string are just different versions of the same instrument. (I believe they are cousins not brothers)

Hope this adds to the discussion...

[JanVigne]

"small guitars are for children under 10-12 years old
children 12 to 120 years old should play on 4/4 guitars"

That is, of course, bullhockey. Adults don't even require all six strings; http://www.broadwaymusicco.com/Harmony9.htm let alone "4/4 guitars".



"i was talking about classical guitars
i personally haven't seen a performer of classical guitar with a 3/4 guitar however small he was"




How big in stature and how old would you say the op is?

What would happen if he played the wrong size guitar?


The guitar should fit the player. Period.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"small guitars are for children under 10-12 years old
children 12 to 120 years old should play on 4/4 guitars"

That is, of course, bullhockey. Adults don't even require all six strings; http://www.broadwaymusicco.com/Harmony9.htm let alone "4/4 guitars".



"i was talking about classical guitars
i personally haven't seen a performer of classical guitar with a 3/4 guitar however small he was"




How big in stature and how old would you say the op is?

What would happen if he played the wrong size guitar?


The guitar should fit the player. Period.

a 12 year old kid is capable to handle a 4/4 guitar
since 5 year olds can handle them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a5rhAEUlXU

[steveyam]

I have to say, this thread has thrown up some of the best, most reasoned advice that I have seen on the forum. It's all there.

For my part - and I don't come from a classical guitar background although I did lessons for a few months - I would say go for a steel strung folk guitar over a nylon strung classical. If you get into strumming chords of popular songs - as is a great way of learning - they're going to sound much better on a steel strung folk guitar. Nylon strings are not so good for strumming, whereas you can pluck single notes on steel strings. I'm saying that it will be more versatile - depending on what you do - obviously.

[JanVigne]

"a 12 year old kid is capable to handle a 4/4 guitar
since 5 year olds can handle them"




Well, I see I was wrong. There are guitar police. LOL!

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"a 12 year old kid is capable to handle a 4/4 guitar
since 5 year olds can handle them"




Well, I see I was wrong. There are guitar police. LOL!

question:
do you play classical guitar?

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi James...
I teach fingerstyle guitar. A classical guitar is not easier to learn fingerstyle on.

The real question which after reading the thread I don't think has been addressed is:

What kind of music do you want to learn to play primarily?

If it's classical music from scores, then you will want/need a classical guitar and classical teacher.

If you want to play more modern music, then I suggest a steel string guitar and a contemporary teacher.

I don't believe classical and steel string are just different versions of the same instrument. (I believe they are cousins not brothers)

Hope this adds to the discussion...

There have been some very helpful comments here, but I think Larry's advice is especially helpful. What kind of music does the OP want to play? If classical, then buy a classical and get some serious instruction. If contemporary, most likely a steel-string guitar is best, though it's true, it's a little harder to learn on until the new player builds up calluses.

I learned 48 years ago on a nylon string classical guitar and then found I wanted the sound of steel strings, so put steel strings on it. I was lucky not to have ruined the guitar. Later I sold the guitar and bought a steel-string. I have a nylon string guitar today (a Taylor NS74CE), but I use it for playing jazz, bossa nova, stuff like that. Very little real classical music.

- Glenn

[JanVigne]

"question:
do you play classical guitar?"



I own two "classical" guitars. Just last week I purchased a 3/4 size Yamaha nylon string. I stand 6' tall, 190 lbs. I like it and it feels right in my lap.

I studied classical guitar when I was young. I play both of those guitars frequently but I no longer play classical music.


Ok, pick yourself up off the floor, breathe into a paper bag for a few minutes and now you can answer my question. What would happen if someone played the "wrong" size guitar? "Wrong", that is, according to your world view of how things operate. I can detect no adverse effects from playing the 3/4 Yamaha. My fingers haven't frozen in a too tight grip, my back doesn't bother me after playing and my nose hasn't fallen off. So, what's my future look like? Will I not be allowed in the old guitar players rest home?

[bohemian]

I have owned about 2 dozen classical and flamenco guitars from a 1961 Ramirez Flamenco , 1962 Velasquez, Carlos Fancisco Vega, to GOYA G-10's, and a few rather expensive customs and some inexpensive, but excellent guitars.

My favorites are the less expensive instruments. Example

Used Takamine 132S... Mine is the SC .. excellent guitar, paid $500 with case.
New guitars made by Godin.. La Patrie I believe.. outstanding values in weel made North American crafted instruments.

The Kremona Guitars... good stuff at modest prices, Bulgaria I believe.



I have never had problems tuning nylon string guitars, initial stretching is the nature of the beast. Beyond that, no big deal.
Favorite strings.. for consistency, Pro Arte "normal".

Check out Guy Van Duser on you tube for a sample of what can be done with a classical, or Duck Baker.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"question:
do you play classical guitar?"



I own two "classical" guitars. Just last week I purchased a 3/4 size Yamaha nylon string. I stand 6' tall, 190 lbs. I like it and it feels right in my lap.

I studied classical guitar when I was young. I play both of those guitars frequently but I no longer play classical music.


Ok, pick yourself up off the floor, breathe into a paper bag for a few minutes and now you can answer my question. What would happen if someone played the "wrong" size guitar? "Wrong", that is, according to your world view of how things operate. I can detect no adverse effects from playing the 3/4 Yamaha. My fingers haven't frozen in a too tight grip, my back doesn't bother me after playing and my nose hasn't fallen off. So, what's my future look like? Will I not be allowed in the old guitar players rest home?

so you spent 125$ for a 3/4 guitar and you think that isn't a kids instrument?
have it your way