Dual Source question

[euraquilo]

Good morning,

Newbie to the forum, but I've been playing acoustic guitar for decades. For many years I was content with my Ovation Balladeer (with an old UST-based pickup), but now I'm settling in to a more refined acoustic sound. The tempering factor, of course, is that funding is limited.

I recently purchased a gently used Blueridge BR-60AS for me to play in a celtic folk band I just joined. This band does small audience performances (sometimes oudoors) and consists of fiddle, concertina, accordion and banjo/mandolin. Low volume, but they do run through a PA system. My first performance with them is in a month or so.

The Blueridge has no internal pickup, though I have been thinking seriously of putting in a K&K Pure Mini, since it seems to be so highly recommended here. I do have a Fishman Neo single coil magnetic soundhole pickup, though, and I could use that without any modification to the guitar.

I'd also like to try running a microphone - probably in a mic stand and pointing at the 12th fret. Alternatively, I also have an AT831B that can be clipped below the sound hole. I have yet to try that out. I own a Shure SM57 dynamic as well as a Shure BG4.1 cardioid condenser and a Behringer B-5 (Omni capsule only, unfortunately).

I have 2 Seven-band EQ pedals, a small mixer and an ART Dual PRE (that has switchable phantom power).

Lots of variables, I know.

So here is what I'm thinking of running as my signal chain:

Guitar pickup --> Tuner pedal --> EQ pedal 1 -----> Mixer Ch 1
Guitar mic --> ART Dual Pre CH 1 --> EQ pedal 2 --> Mixer Ch 2

Does this sound like it could work?

[rogthefrog]

I'd send the pickups straight into a 2-channel preamp blender like the k&k or a dtar solstice, do eq in there, and send that to your processing or tuner.

[Jambi]

I'm finding dual sources to be more and more common among the AGF'ers who want more from their tone. Based on the research I did here I settled on a JJB Prestige (similar to K&K) and a GHS internal soundhole mic.

http://jjb-electronics.com/prestige-330.html

http://www.ghsstrings.com/products?c...soundhole-mics

Here's what I'll add for you until the much more knowledgeable chime in:
1. Do you play percussively at all? If so, steer away from the mic... it flops all over the place in my guitar.
2. Are you willing to do the work yourself? I wasn't ready to do the JJB install at the time and with the pickup AND the work done it cost as much as a K&K by itself. (the K&K does come with a tool to aid in installation however and my JJB did not)
3. There are dual source pickup/mic combos out there already, I've had my eye on the Fishman Rare Earth for quite a while but I'm monetarily hindered as of right now.
4. Phase issues. If you decide a scenario similar to mine you may run into phase problems. It's something I've been having to deal with.


Good luck and let us know what you decide/use, I'm very fascinated with this topic and knowledge helps us all.

[euraquilo]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

I'd send the pickups straight into a 2-channel preamp blender like the k&k or a dtar solstice, do eq in there, and send that to your processing or tuner.

It's not likely I can afford either of the blending preamps you mentioned. I can make that a longer term goal, though.

[euraquilo]

Thanks, Jambi...

>1. Do you play percussively at all? If so, steer away from the mic... it flops all over the place in my guitar.

I'll actually be sitting and mostly using a pick to strum background comp-style playing. No aggressive or bouncy movements. Good point!

>2. Are you willing to do the work yourself?

I tend to like to do the work myself, but I think if I buy the K&K Mini or the JJB in the Blueridge I'll have it done by a very skilled luthier I just met who is very reasonable. He told me it's all of a half-hour of work and he could do it while I wait.

> 3. There are dual source pickup/mic combos out there already, I've had my eye on the Fishman Rare Earth for quite a while but I'm monetarily hindered as of right now.

Yes, I've looked at these, too, and they may be a future investment.

>4. Phase issues. If you decide a scenario similar to mine you may run into phase problems. It's something I've been having to deal with.

Can you describe what you've experienced in this regard?

[Dustinfurlow]

Hey bud, dual sourcing is always going to give you a better sound than single, in my opinion. To my way of thinking, the more dimension you have to work with for an acoustic instrument, the better. I've been happy with using the k& k Trinity through the Trinity preamp and Dtar solstice for some time now and recently added the Dimarzio black angel as a third source in a separate channel and wow, talk about a clean sound when blended and eq'd just right. If "natural" is what you're going for, a well EQ'd K&K Trinity is hard to beat, if using effects in your rig is your thing you will get the cleanest, least feedback prone signal from a good magnetic, hence why I added the Black Angel.

These are just my experiences and what I've learned from watching dozens of pro-gear rig ideas by the Acoustic Guitar Magazine channel on YouTube and talking with pros themselves after shows. When you get a good rig you're happy with, it's a great feeling and you'll want to share with others. Hope this helps.

[Jambi]

Originally Posted by euraquilo

Can you describe what you've experienced in this regard?

I had EQ'd both signals until I was happy and was going to record onto two separate tracks in my recorder. As soon as I made both signals live they became quiet and thin with no bass.

Phase cancellation is pretty common with sources that are near one another such as mine but unfortunately I currently don't have a mixer/preamp that features a phase reversal option so I had to bypass the internal mic for a mic on a stand at 12th fret.

[euraquilo]

Thanks, Dustinfurlow for the insights. And btw, right now I don't plan to add any effects. This band seems to be all about natural sound.

[euraquilo]

Originally Posted by Jambi

I had EQ'd both signals until I was happy and was going to record onto two separate tracks in my recorder. As soon as I made both signals live they became quiet and thin with no bass.

Phase cancellation is pretty common with sources that are near one another such as mine but unfortunately I currently don't have a mixer/preamp that features a phase reversal option so I had to bypass the internal mic for a mic on a stand at 12th fret.

Ah, I see. I have definitely been thinking of the mic-pointing-at-the-14th-fret setup rather than an internal mic. The other option I mentioned was the AT831b, which is a lavalier mic that comes with an adapter to clip onto the sound hole. it hangs down (externally) from the sound hole. I wondered if that might combine well with the mag pickup. Maybe I'll try all three? (insert nervous laugh...)

[euraquilo]

So a related question...

When using my current equipment like my 7-band EQ pedal and the Fishman Neo D Single-Coil mag pickup... Assuming the pickup's working in parallel with an external mic, how should I approach EQing it?

• Should I increasingly roll off the higher bands in order to use it to highlight more of the lower frequencies?

• Or is this always going to be situation-dependent?

I'm just wondering if there's a generally accepted "starting point" for this new world (to me) of dual source amplification.