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  #31  
Old 08-17-2017, 02:16 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is online now
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Cotton was a valuable commodity, no doubt. Britain had recently (1833) outlawed slavery. Britain was the South's primary buyer for cotton. Parliament was already debating whether to severe ties with the South and to quit buying cotton from the US due to public sentiment against slavery there.

Trying to make the war about money is a revisionist history. It was about abolition of slavery. It was about whether we had a loose confederation of states or the federal government was primary.
Oh I disagree. Slavery was primarily about economics, which is so often the macro driver of major armed conflict. I mean it's semantics either way, but clearly for the South, economics and slavery were inexorably tied. Take away slavery and the economic power structure is in total upheaval. People would have lost land, power, prestige, and coin. People tend not to give that kind of thing up without a fight.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:24 PM
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Having studied this extensively, I have never seen a remotely valid legal or constitutional argument for unilateral secession. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled against it. Certainly had they won, the rebellion would have set it's own rules. They didn't.

Per the topic, Gettysburg is a quietly impressive experience. I haven't been there in decades, but it left quite an impression.
The Federal authorities at the time must have believed secession was OK as they unilaterally took the western counties of Virginia and made them the state of West Virginia. They supported and endorsed the secession of counties from their state.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2017, 03:29 PM
Nyghthawk Nyghthawk is offline
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The Federal authorities at the time must have believed secession was OK as they unilaterally took the western counties of Virginia and made them the state of West Virginia. They supported and endorsed the secession of counties from their state.
Huh? How is that secession? How is that even in the same ballpark? Making a new state out of those western counties hardly qualifies as secession. That is another example of federal supremacy.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:01 PM
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Huh? How is that secession? How is that even in the same ballpark? Making a new state out of those western counties hardly qualifies as secession. That is another example of federal supremacy.
What would you call counties separating from their duly constituted state to form a separate state?
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:16 PM
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What would you call counties separating from their duly constituted state to form a separate state?
Comparison shopping????
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:20 PM
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Comparison shopping????
That's the current term. Been some movement in Northern California to secede and form a new state, think they called it Jefferson. Kansas had a little mini-secession movement a few years ago where some counties wanted to switch state allegiance if I recall correctly.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:27 PM
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As HHP knows but many others might not, Virginia's Shenandoah Valley is an interesting place to drive and self-tour Stonewall Jackson's Valley Campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackso...alley_Campaign Most of the "battlefields" are privately owned but there are generally historic signs that identify their location. James Robertson's books are an easy read and nice guides to Virginia's various Civil War battles which outnumbered any other state....

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Last edited by RP; 08-17-2017 at 04:37 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:37 PM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is online now
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What would you call counties separating from their duly constituted state to form a separate state?
An entirely different legal matter than seceding from the Union. It was voted on and ratified by the state of Virginia after their own secession from the Union. Given the latter, all kinds of questions come up, but it's a wholly separate matter from unilateral secession from the United States.

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That's the current term. Been some movement in Northern California to secede and form a new state, think they called it Jefferson. Kansas had a little mini-secession movement a few years ago where some counties wanted to switch state allegiance if I recall correctly.
There have been hundreds of such proposals. They simply need to get enough votes, but never come close. But it's clearly legal, at least per the California constitution. Some lack of clarity on what the US would need to do to admit the new state.
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  #39  
Old 08-17-2017, 04:43 PM
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The topic is Gettysburg. Let's get away from politics and political history.
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  #40  
Old 08-17-2017, 05:41 PM
Neil K Walk Neil K Walk is offline
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I went there as a child on a field trip but have only been interested in history since my enlistment in the military. At that time we witnessed the Berlin Wall being torn down on the ship's internal news channel. It was surreal. Later on my honeymoon I toured the USS Arizona memorial in awe and wonder alongside tourists from Japan and wondered why they were so interested. I still struggle to convey the feeling of awe I had that day. I can't even imagine being involved in a conflict where I could potentially have taken up arms against known relatives who happen to live across some imaginary line on a map.
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  #41  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:00 PM
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I went there as a child on a field trip but have only been interested in history since my enlistment in the military. At that time we witnessed the Berlin Wall being torn down on the ship's internal news channel. It was surreal. Later on my honeymoon I toured the USS Arizona memorial in awe and wonder alongside tourists from Japan and wondered why they were so interested. I still struggle to convey the feeling of awe I had that day. I can't even imagine being involved in a conflict where I could potentially have taken up arms against known relatives who happen to live across some imaginary line on a map.
I understand that during Pickett's Charge, one of the Confederate officers who made it to the Union position was welcomed there by one of his West Point classmates. The officer corp on both sides knew each other, had served together in Mexico, and many had gone to school together.
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  #42  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:24 PM
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I went there as a child on a field trip but have only been interested in history since my enlistment in the military. At that time we witnessed the Berlin Wall being torn down on the ship's internal news channel. It was surreal. Later on my honeymoon I toured the USS Arizona memorial in awe and wonder alongside tourists from Japan and wondered why they were so interested. I still struggle to convey the feeling of awe I had that day. I can't even imagine being involved in a conflict where I could potentially have taken up arms against known relatives who happen to live across some imaginary line on a map.
My wife and I plus my son toured the Arizona and the Missouri on the same day. There were lots of Japanese visitors to both the Arizona and the Missouri. I ask the tour guide if this was normal and he told me that thousands of Japanese visit each year. At the time of my visit I was probably 60 years old and the Japanese visitors I saw were in their 50's and 60.

WWII was my fathers war. I was born in 1944. The same is true with the Japanese visitors I encountered. Their fathers were the soldiers, sailors and aviators of WWII. Each of us had a totally different perspective of WWII.

It is sobering to visit the Arizona. We toured the Missouri second and all I can say is "what an amazing ship". We did the captains tour and had lunch in the Captains board room. Then we stepped outside to the exact spot the surrender was signed.
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2017, 06:54 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Hi Dru,

Getting to Gettysburg as well as to Nazareth to take the Martin tour are on my bucket list. I am so glad you made it to Gettysburg! I have done a lot of studying about the Gettysburg US Civil War battle, so I know I would get a lot out of being there. Same for being at the nearby cemetery.

Good for you, Dru!

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  #44  
Old 08-18-2017, 01:59 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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I understand that during Pickett's Charge, one of the Confederate officers who made it to the Union position was welcomed there by one of his West Point classmates. The officer corps on both sides knew each other, had served together in Mexico, and many had gone to school together.
A few years ago I played a clip from the 1938 Gettysburg 75th Anniversary Commemoration for my students...

As they had been on a guided trip to a local military museum earlier in the year, they were hands-on familiar with period weaponry - nomenclature, usage, and the carnage it could cause...

At one point in the film a group of nonagenarian vets - Union and Confederate - donned their old uniforms and performed a hobbling re-enactment of Pickett's Charge...

They met at the infamous stone wall, handshakes and embraces replacing bayonets and double-canister...

My students' reactions - from simple expressions of surprise to uncontrolled tears - testified to a lesson learned...

I recall one historian describing the American Civil War as the last war fought by gentlemen - I heartily agree...

Enjoy your trip, Glenn...
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  #45  
Old 08-18-2017, 03:32 PM
Nyghthawk Nyghthawk is offline
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https://www.civilwar.org/learn/artic...onville-prison

Visit this place. It will end any illusions held that this was a war fought by gentlemen.
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