Layering percussion

buzzardwhiskey · #1 08-10-2017, 04:42 PM

My band and I are recording our second CD ourselves using lots of "layers" rather than how we did it on our first CD (in a studio where everyone had one or more mics and we all played at once into a system with at least a dozen A-to-D converters).

I've created a temporary drum track using EZ Drummer 2. Then I've recorded my acoustic guitar(s). Then we recorded a bass, mandolin, resonator guitar and so on.

So far so good. We're actually very excited about the quality. Soon we will record vocals as well, and lastly I'm hoping to replace the "fake" drums with real percussive elements. And I have questions...

My interface is an Audient iD14 with two mic pre's.

1) Is it possible to "disassemble" a groovy drum beat into its components and record them as layers like we're doing with the rest of the project? Or will a good finished product we too difficult to achieve?
2) What should I start with first? Second? Etc...
3) Do you have any tips or gotchas?

Thank you for your time.

KevWind · #2 08-10-2017, 10:05 PM

So to be clear, you want to mic multiple real percussion instruments and record them ? As opposed to using EZ drum correct ?

I have recorded single percussion instruments and the main thing is to watch the peaks on the hits . I have not done multiple dubs of percussion myself but I would think that you proceed more or less the same as assembling a midi drum track.
Start with whatever instrument will carry the basic beat (like the kick in a midi drum kit) and build from there

PorkPieGuy · #3 08-11-2017, 06:42 AM

I'm a drummer before I'm a guitar player.

IMO, you needed to have recorded just about all of the percussion stuff first.

Do you plan on keeping the loop, or are you looking to get rid of it and do percussion instead?

buzzardwhiskey · #4 08-11-2017, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorkPieGuy

I'm a drummer before I'm a guitar player.

IMO, you needed to have recorded just about all of the percussion stuff first.

Do you plan on keeping the loop, or are you looking to get rid of it and do percussion instead?

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

So I'm thinking, turn off the midi kick and record some kind of real kick (maybe using two mics). Then turn off the midi snare and record a real snare.

At each point, the drummer needn't follow the original drum pattern, but is free to do their own thing. When all is said and done we'll have real drums!

PorkPieGuy · #5 08-11-2017, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

So I'm thinking, turn off the midi kick and record some kind of real kick (maybe using two mics). Then turn off the midi snare and record a real snare.

At each point, the drummer needn't follow the original drum pattern, but is free to do their own thing. When all is said and done we'll have real drums!

Sounds great.

KevWind · #6 08-11-2017, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

So I'm thinking, turn off the midi kick and record some kind of real kick (maybe using two mics). Then turn off the midi snare and record a real snare.

At each point, the drummer needn't follow the original drum pattern, but is free to do their own thing. When all is said and done we'll have real drums!

Ah I admit I was confused from you OP I thought you switching from a midi drum kit to other types of real percussion instruments .
So if you are going to have an actual real drum kit. And assuming you only have the two mic inputs correct ?
You could do one kit element at a time like you are planning ...OR you could just set up a pair of stereo overhead/room mics and record all the drum kit at one time (the placement would be the determining factor in balancing the sound of kit as opposed to balancing individual dubbed tracks )

IF it were me I would probably try both methods

MikeBmusic · #7 08-11-2017, 07:46 AM

I don't know - maybe it will sound ok, but if you actually have a drummer with a full kit, why not try recording him doing his thing with just the two mics? It may take some experimentation to get the placements correct.
Or, if you have more mics and a mixer available, do it that way.
I think having a person play 'one instrument at a time' is not going to sound very realistic when assembled.
For example: a drummer only has 2 hands, so if one hand is hitting the snare, the other the high hat, then no other thing will be getting hit near those same moments. But if the recording person is only playing high hat (or snare) for that track, there is more than a likely the chance of the '4 armed drummer' (which can happen to those doing MIDI drum programming, if they don't know what they're doing).
What you are doing is replacing each EZDrummer sound with a sound you recorded yourself. MIDI in EZD is only triggering the sampled sound - if your problem is that the EZD track doesn't sound real enough, then work on it.

Brent Hahn · #8 08-11-2017, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

I do this sort of thing a lot. Prepare to be lousy at it at first. There's no "give and take" with the band if it's pre-recorded to a loop; you have to lock solidly with the band.

You may want to try it in two stages. Stage 1, replace the "fake loop" with a solid "real loop," maybe 2 or 4 bars rather than just 1 to get a bit of humanity into it, and paste that in top to bottom. Stage 2, track all variations like stops and fills and accents, muting the "real loop" bars where those occur.

Happy percussing!

jim1960 · #9 08-11-2017, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

We will get rid of the midi stuff altogether. It will be replaced, one "type of drum" at a time.

So I'm thinking, turn off the midi kick and record some kind of real kick (maybe using two mics). Then turn off the midi snare and record a real snare.

At each point, the drummer needn't follow the original drum pattern, but is free to do their own thing. When all is said and done we'll have real drums!

Can it be done? Yes.
Can it be done and still sound and feel like it has the flow of a real drummer? I'm skeptical.

runamuck · #10 08-11-2017, 08:18 AM

I play drums and sure wouldn't want to put a part together that way.
Rent or borrow as many mics required, along with a mixer for that many channels, and do it in one go.

Brent Hahn · #11 08-11-2017, 08:23 AM

This was done that way.

PorkPieGuy · #12 08-11-2017, 08:23 AM

Also, having done a lot of recording, and the more "live" I've been able to record, the better.

I know there are many, many people out there more talented than I am, but with that said, recordings that are sort of "pieced together" and recorded in bits and pieces over time simply don't sound as good as a band playing together. Every time, and I mean EVERY TIME, I've done this, it comes across as sounding rather sterile with little to no energy. I mean, the notes are there, and everything is played correctly, but it just falls flat.

I hope that your experiences are different.

KevWind · #13 08-11-2017, 08:29 AM

First thing we need to get clear on what type of midi drum part the OP actually has.
And second we should get our terminology on the same page.

Midi drum" loop" is a pre recorded drum part usually from 1 to 8 bars long (perhaps 12 bars if it is a blues loop) that can be imported into a stereo track and duplicated back to back for the length of the song.

Midi drum samples are recordings of a single drum element/instruments (like a kick drum, or a snare drum, or a hi hat cymbal etc.) and are one hit long (or sometimes short fills like for snare)
These individual drum sounds can then be triggered and played and recorded (programed) on to their own individual tracks, via a keyboard (either virtual or actual outboard midi keyboard).
So you could have the kick on a single mono track the snare on a single mono track etc. etc.
It sounded from his comments to me like Buzzard had used this second method ( I could be mistaken) perhaps he can clarify.

There is also midi pattern sequencing but that's a different discussion

Al Acuff · #14 08-11-2017, 08:45 AM

Generally speaking you want to record your rhythm section playing live together in the studio (with a scratch vocal). It's the only way to get a solid time feel. "Layering" won't get you there.

IMHO overdubs are best reserved for vocals, backup vocals, lead guitar, etc.

The guy who taught me this produced a string of number one hits and that's how he recorded all his bands. This was back in the days of tape. He said that the analogue system latency was enough to kill a time feel if you overdubbed the rhythm parts separately. Latency is even more of a problem with digital recordings.

It's good to experiment but be careful not to kill the overall groove of a recording by doing too many overdubs. It's easy to do. You only need to be off by a few milliseconds.

Brent Hahn · #15 08-11-2017, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Acuff

The guy who taught me this produced a string of number one hits and [live rhythm section is] how he recorded all his bands.

He had a track record and budgets. That leaves a lot of us out, I'm pretty sure.

Quote:

He said that the analogue system latency was enough to kill a time feel if you overdubbed the rhythm parts separately.

Interesting theory.

Quote:

Latency is even more of a problem with digital recordings.

You can certainly tell it's there, compared to a straight analog line from the mic to your headphones (when's the last time you heard that?) but would you really call it a problem? I mean the latency in, say, a PT TDM or HDX system.