K&K Pickups: why all the love?

[Jeffe26]

Honestly I have never played or heard a guitar with a k&k in it live. But I have to ask...if the K&K is so good, why don't more well known professional musicians use it?
You can go on Lr Baggs site and they have some pretty well known ambassadors using their stuff. But k&k's user list is not nearly as impressive.

[arashaw]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

I've tried a bunch of pickups, and every single one came with compromises. I'm not totally in love with the K&K, but for me it offers me the best balance of compromises. It's relatively cheap and easy to install. It doesn't permanently change my instruments. It doesn't affect the unplugged tone. Soundmen seem to be able to handle it with ease. It needs quite a bit of EQ to sound the way I like, but beyond that it's dead easy to use.

I haven't found a pickup yet that works perfectly for me out of the box, they all take some work. I just find that I need less fiddling around with the K&K to get a sound that I like.

I think this is a realistic comment. I also think there are many variables in live situations, guitar body types, rooms, sound guys, on and on, that can make you second guess any one single pickup.

[sixstrings]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

So I'll go a step further and ask the K&K Crowd a question: what makes so many people want to rip out the Expression System in the first place? So what about it makes so many musicians remove it and replace it with a K&K? Just curious to get opinions...

Like you, I need to perform and cannot re-invent the wheel every time I plug my guitar in. Initially, my 910ceL7 Taylor had the ES1 and it was often metallic - numerous parts kept failing but Taylor fixed everything on warranty - so I was relatively happy - even if the sound was 'not acoustic', it did the job. Then I sent it back to El Cajon for some minor cosmetic fixes and got the ES2 and it slowly began to acquire a hum issue that Taylor refused to acknowledge. They'd give me a lecture on ground loops when I called. Sound engineers at gigs would scratch their heads. No one else on the stage had a ground/hum problem - except me. Once they refused to help me, it forced me to give up on it for practical reasons. However, I did not want to go through my musical life plugging this guitar in without at least trying to hear hear it's gorgeous Brazilian Rosewood acoustic sound electrified properly. So I removed the ES for the K&K.The K&K is not perfect, but it's plug and play w/ some minor tweaks. Do I miss the high gain before feedback of the ES? Sure, but the Fishman Performer has all the gain I need when used properly. I don't like the holes in my guitar but my luthier, of all people, thinks they're cool...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by sixstrings

Like you, I need to perform and cannot re-invent the wheel every time I plug my guitar in. Initially, my 910ceL7 Taylor had the ES1 and it was often metallic - numerous parts kept failing but Taylor fixed everything on warranty - so I was relatively happy - even if the sound was 'not acoustic', it did the job. Then I sent it back to El Cajon for some minor cosmetic fixes and got the ES2 and it slowly began to acquire a hum issue that Taylor refused to acknowledge. They'd give me a lecture on ground loops when I called. Sound engineers at gigs would scratch their heads. No one else on the stage had a ground/hum problem - except me. Once they refused to help me, it forced me to give up on it for practical reasons. However, I did not want to go through my musical life plugging this guitar in without at least trying to hear hear it's gorgeous Brazilian Rosewood acoustic sound electrified properly. So I removed the ES for the K&K.The K&K is not perfect, but it's plug and play w/ some minor tweaks. Do I miss the high gain before feedback of the ES? Sure, but the Fishman Performer has all the gain I need when used properly. I don't like the holes in my guitar but my luthier, of all people, thinks they're cool...

Wow, sorry to hear about your bad experience upgrading your Taylor. I bet that guitar sounds beautiful.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by sixstrings

Like you, I need to perform and cannot re-invent the wheel every time I plug my guitar in. Initially, my 910ceL7 Taylor had the ES1 and it was often metallic - numerous parts kept failing but Taylor fixed everything on warranty - so I was relatively happy - even if the sound was 'not acoustic', it did the job. Then I sent it back to El Cajon for some minor cosmetic fixes and got the ES2 and it slowly began to acquire a hum issue that Taylor refused to acknowledge. They'd give me a lecture on ground loops when I called. Sound engineers at gigs would scratch their heads. No one else on the stage had a ground/hum problem - except me. Once they refused to help me, it forced me to give up on it for practical reasons. However, I did not want to go through my musical life plugging this guitar in without at least trying to hear hear it's gorgeous Brazilian Rosewood acoustic sound electrified properly. So I removed the ES for the K&K.The K&K is not perfect, but it's plug and play w/ some minor tweaks. Do I miss the high gain before feedback of the ES? Sure, but the Fishman Performer has all the gain I need when used properly. I don't like the holes in my guitar but my luthier, of all people, thinks they're cool...

I take it you're referencing an upgrade to the magnetic ES1.2 system from the original magnetic ES1.1? ES2 is the shorthand designation for the new behind-the-saddle piezo-based Expression System 2. When your magnetic-based ES1.2 developed the hum, did anyone check the internal fuse?

Regards,

SpruceTop

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by Jeffe26

Honestly I have never played or heard a guitar with a k&k in it live. But I have to ask...if the K&K is so good, why don't more well known professional musicians use it?
You can go on Lr Baggs site and they have some pretty well known ambassadors using their stuff. But k&k's user list is not nearly as impressive.

Tone is subjective but there are many respected artists who use k&k products with success. I have personally heard at least 2 of these artists using k&k live and they worked/sounded fantastic to my ears. There are many more but it really boils down to the versatility of k&k products-

alohachris has got it right

http://kksound.com/artists.php

[jonfields45]

A more robust fuse for Taylor ES-1's with a string ground:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...76-37200400001

LittelFuse 37200400001

[gibbyguy]

Originally Posted by Jeffe26

Honestly I have never played or heard a guitar with a k&k in it live. But I have to ask...if the K&K is so good, why don't more well known professional musicians use it?

Since you haven't played or heard one with K&K/JJB, I strongly recommend going to a boutique guitar shop (acoustic) and asking if they have one with K&K. Ask them for their opinion also.
The K&K PWM (or JJB 330 - same technology but half the price) does need an accesory preamp or an acoustic amp to run through. Most professionals will use a house system PA board, and it may be a matter of convenience to simply plug and play a pickup system with built in preamp like LR Baggs, Element/Anthem, etc.

Originally Posted by EmperorPo

I have no experience with the K&K but also thought the same thing as the OP, so much love for this pickup. All the sound clips I have found just don't do it for me. I may be wrong and it might sound really good in person, but I don't know anyone who has one to try out. I recently went with an Anthem SL. Twice the price but I really dig it for what I do.

I am considering a K&K for my GS mini though because of price and to see what the hype is about.

The K&K is half the price or even more of the other UST or sound hole pickups; if you are really concerned about price put in a JJB 330 ($50 shipped to your door-half of the K&K). I installed a JJB 330 pickup my highest-end guitar not because of the price (obviously), but because of the sound. It is my my best sounding acoustic and sounds great through my Fishman Loudbox Artist.

Do your own research and read as many posts comparing K&K technology with UST and others. I think you'll be surprised hearing the K&K after reading all the bad comments here. In fact, I'm not sure I've read so many gang-up-on-K&K posts.

Again as many have said all along, sound is very subjective and you'll probably gravitate toward the sound that is best to your ears.

[Gypsyblue]

Through a nice preamp like the RedEye, and into a quality acoustic guitar amp or PA, properly installed K&K Pure Minis sound terrific.

Not saying there are not other pickup systems that also sound terrific, but if a player can't get a nice sound with the K&K's it's not the fault of the pickup.

[TenorAtLarge]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

if a player can't get a nice sound with the K&K's it's not the fault of the pickup.

I dunno... I can pretty much place the blame solely on the K&K in my case. I'm not positive that the install was done right, but my Taylor sounded like flabby, muffled flatulence when plugged in. You can't blame me or the sound techs at almost a dozen venues for that... especially when even my Seagull with the stock electronics sounded a million times better immediately.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

I dunno... I can pretty much place the blame solely on the K&K in my case. I'm not positive that the install was done right, but my Taylor sounded like flabby, muffled flatulence when plugged in. You can't blame me or the sound techs at almost a dozen venues for that... especially when even my Seagull with the stock electronics sounded a million times better immediately.

I've never, ever, heard a guitar with properly installed K&K's sound as you describe.

And I have them in four very nice guitars.

I do always run mine through Red Eye preamps.

But even without the Red Eye they don't sound like the sound you describe.

There's something else going on here because the K&K's always sound, at the very least, "good".

Have you played any other guitars with K&K's or only your own?

[TenorAtLarge]

Only my own. Now mind you, I've since sold that guitar off... I simply wasn't going to go through another day on tour lugging around a guitar that I couldn't use during my set.

I tried a couple of different preamps from other musicians at the various venues I played... every time, it was just a much louder version of the same fuzzy fart sound.

Now I acknowledge that any improperly installed pickup is going to sound bad, and it would seem like this was the case with mine based on what everyone is saying... I just didn't have the time to spare to have a random luthier I didn't know get up in its guts and do a reinstall. I'll just say this much- even properly installed, they sound like a bit of a hassle once the signal is outside of that endpin...

[sixstrings]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

When your magnetic-based ES1.2 developed the hum, did anyone check the internal fuse?

yes, ES 1.2. I just thought getting a factory installed 1.2 would be the final end to all these issues...and when Taylor, in two phone calls to CS were indignant and no longer supportive, it was time to bail. When a guitar or any electronic device fails me onstage w/ no warning, that's where I draw the line. I have saved the electronics and someday might try and re-use/ address the hum etc and go to battle once more. But all that seems old to me right now. From the start - the ES, no matter what version - never 'tried hard enough' in its design to reflect the acoustic nature of the axe. Yet in the first 5 years I owned it, I didn't know any better and/or it was more than adequate. I come from the days in the 70's when we had our first Barcus Berry's and FRAP pickups...and were grateful for anything to work. Furthermore, I have some old video footage of me playing the original ES and it sounded (gasp) -very natural. Electronics, wood, the soul of the music and our messages to the world - are all living entities and subject to that one constant in life: change. And yes, Martingitdave, the guitar is a workhorse with a sweet sound; very balanced.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

Only my own. Now mind you, I've since sold that guitar off... I simply wasn't going to go through another day on tour lugging around a guitar that I couldn't use during my set.

I tried a couple of different preamps from other musicians at the various venues I played... every time, it was just a much louder version of the same fuzzy fart sound.

Now I acknowledge that any improperly installed pickup is going to sound bad, and it would seem like this was the case with mine based on what everyone is saying... I just didn't have the time to spare to have a random luthier I didn't know get up in its guts and do a reinstall. I'll just say this much- even properly installed, they sound like a bit of a hassle once the signal is outside of that endpin...

No hassle at all. My RedEye's don't even have tone controls other than a very subtle treble roll off control.

I plug into the RedEye and the XLR output of the RedEye goes straight to the PA.

Either your K&K's weren't properly installed or there was something else in your signal chain that was contributing to giving you a bad sound.

Maybe to much bass on the PA or something.

Only time I ever got a woofy sound with my K&K's was when I brought both my Taylor 710B dread and my Blueridge BR163 to a gig and plugged them both into my RedEye Twin preamp and then the output of that into one channel of the PA.

The RedEye Twin has two channels but just one output.

The soundman set up the EQ to sound good with the small bodied BR163 but when I switched to the 710B it sounded super big and bassy.

But it was because the EQ for the small bodied BR163 wasn't right for the dreadnaught sized 710B.

Never made that mistake again. I bought a second RedEye and now when I bring two guitars to a gig each has its own RedEye and each gets its own channel on the PA board.

[TenorAtLarge]

I've gotta say... I'm really enjoying this thread! Lots of passionate musicians on here... I'm glad I decided to jump in and start posting!

So as I know I'll never be swayed about K&K but there seems to be an absolute mountain of knowledgable acoustic musicians here, I'd like to ask: is there an aftermarket facsimile to the Taylor Expression System out there? I really love the way it handles and sounds with my playing style. I know that one day (when the budget allows for such luxuries) I will buy a Gibson J200, and when that day comes around I'll need to install a pickup in it. I floated this question in the Unofficial Taylor Forums, but didn't get a huge amount of useful info... I've been able to find secondhand Taylor preamps, and I figure a Shadow Nanomag (ala Epiphone) would be a nice, non-invasive alternative to the under-neck pickup of the Taylor. The hard one to figure out is the body sensors... does ANYONE make those aftermarket? Or even better- does anyone do a full package that handles all of this aftermarket?