K&K Pickups: why all the love?

[AZLiberty]

I installed a K&K in one of my guitars because everyone over here (and on the Larrivee Forum) seems to simply love them to death.

When I picked up my guitar from the instal and plugged it in to one of the shop's amps it sounded awesome. Simply great. Sounds great with my amp at home, just quieter than an active pickup.

First time I played out with it it sounded terrible, like a Labrador Retriever stuck in a sewer pipe. (woofy and echoey). Ended up playing it unamplified which worked ok because it was a small venue and I can play fairly loudly if needed.

Turns out these things are not plug-and-play. If the sound board guy knows what he is doing he'll run it through a DI box. Since the sound guy does not always know what he is doing I bought my own DI box and now have to take it everywhere the guitar goes.

It works, but it's not nearly as simple as plugging in a guitar with a UST and built-in preamp.

I don't here a difference in sound quality between the K&K and a quality UST either.

The OP's sounds either defective, or installed incorrectly.

[Shoreline Music]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

Welcome to the forum, where one man's wet fart is another man's choir of angels.

I'm assuming you'll want some sort of attribution if I decide to borrow this line to use on our website?

Originally Posted by Shoreline Music

I'm assuming you'll want some sort of attribution if I decide to borrow this line to use on our website?

Nah, be my guest!

[steelvibe]

Laugh Out Loud Italian Spruce! I started laughing from seeing the video still alone- I have seen that video before. Thanks for ending my day on a wet...er, funny note

[AllThumbsBruce]

Originally Posted by Italian Spruce

So what you're effectively saying is what you hear in this video:



Is the sonic equivalent of:

I feel both videos demonstrate very well the appropriate sounds. I like the tail wagging on the last one.

[TenorAtLarge]

Wow! I wasn't expecting such a huge volume of responses so quickly!

To address a few things:

1. I'm almost positive it wasn't installed correctly. I did listen to to that video posted here many moons ago, and mine didn't sound like that at all.

2. Selling off that guitar was a REALLY tough decision, but one that I had to make relatively quickly. When I play live, I use probably a dozen different tunings for just as many songs... so to reduce changeover times and stress on the instrument, I bring 3 or 4 and string and tune them all differently. After a handful of gigs where the GS5 was the serious problem child of the lot, I made a quick swap for a 90's Gibson with a Fishman and things ran more smoothly for the rest of the tour. The Gibbo didn't sound nearly as good as the GS5 unplugged, but it did the job I needed it to, so c'est la vie.

3. The Taylor ES to Fishman Aura signal chain- not an exact science. I had to spend a good few weeks messing around with it to get it relatively close to what I heard unplugged, and even then I'm running about 25-30% imaging, so it's a subtle touch. Obviously it was designed to work with a more traditional acoustic-electric system, but heck- Alex Lifeson runs that pedal with his Fishman equipped Les Pauls (which have practically no acoustic signature, heh) and gets a great sound, so I say go forth and experiment, ha!

4. This string of responses I've read has basically confirmed what I initially suspected: that I am one of a VERY small minority that's had a negative experience with K&K. Even the properly installed ones I hear in videos tend to sound relatively dark and a little boomy to my ear, so it was probably never a good fit for me to begin with. I love how bright and lively Taylors tend to sound as I smack at them with all the grace of an elephant falling down a flight of stairs, so I'll probably keep adding to the collection without ever needing an aftermarket pickup. I just know that what I experienced with the K&K was heartbreaking and has thusly soured me to the brand.

So I'll go a step further and ask the K&K Crowd a question: what makes so many people want to rip out the Expression System in the first place? Granted v1.1 (the AA battery version) has its shortcomings, but I've got a v1.3 as well and have never struggled to get a decent and accurate sound out of it. So what about it makes so many musicians remove it and replace it with a K&K? Just curious to get opinions...

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by TenorAtLarge

So what about it makes so many musicians remove it and replace it with a K&K? Just curious to get opinions...

I personally think it sounds like an electric guitar pickup. Very "metallic", somewhat tinny. When I bought my Taylor I specifically sought out a Non-ES version. (I have a Fishman Matrix Infinity in my GA3-12)

[Jack Orion]

I had a k&k in a Martin 000x1 and it sounded really good, if a little boomy.

I then had one installed in my OM28v and it was nothing but trouble from the start - very prone to feedback, way too much low end. I eventually pulled it out and used a Fishman rare earth for a couple of years which worked well but didn't sound the most acoustic.

I wondered if the k&k had been incorrectly installed and tried another one again last year - same result. Sounded nice at low volumes but anything over conversation level was just feedback central. I bought a couple of different preamps and nothing made it sound good.

Now I use an Anthem SL and everything is great - very acoustic sounding pickup, pretty much plug n play and, despite what everyone says, I've not noticed any change in the unplugged sound (and I have played that guitar everyday since I've owned it).

I've heard the k&k in other guitars sound good but there was just something about my Martin that didn't work.

I wouldn't dream of using one again.

[stephenT]

On this point I'm with the OP.

All the K&K defenders want to believe that either you didn't have the correct preamp or the install was faulty.

No and no. I just don't like the sound and for my playing style K&Ks are unusable.

[open-road-matt]

I have tried different K&K products in a couple of guitars and an ukulele and they sure don't work for me!

I think the K&K is kind of a darling of the AGF. My suspicion is that there is some kind of a secret contest amongst the K&K faithful where they are awarded bonus points if they are the first to jump into a pickup thread and post "get a K&K!"

I have read threads where the OP says, "I'm looking for recommendations of sound hole pickups." "It has to be something I can move from guitar to guitar easily." And someone will say, "get a K&K."

My favorite was the time someone posted a video of Clapton playing acoustic guitar live and sure enough, someone said that he should, "get a K&K!"

I have never met a musician who uses a K&K that is not a part of this forum. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I've just never encountered any. (Now I have heard a couple of forum members play their K&K guitars amplified and they sounded great.)

I'm not at all suggesting that they don't make good products. I just think the use of them is perpetuated by the constant recommendation of people on a forum.

So you get someone with no amplification experience asking for recommendations. They get a bunch of "get a K&K" posts, so they do. Now they are in the "get a K&K" camp and it keeps going.

Nothing wrong with it but those looking for pick up recommendations have to take it for what it is: people posting a forum. It can be a wonderful source of information but we often get no context.

Someone says "I have a K&K and it's the best pickup I've ever heard." Ok, great but without context (what else have you tried? what do you play? what style? through what kind of system? where? how often? to how many people? for how many years? etc.) it frankly doesn't mean much. But to someone who is pickup shopping for the first time, they can take the many, "get a K&K" posts to mean that it is the best pickup out there, instead of it being just one of many options that could work for them.

Just my rambling thoughts,
Matt

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Italian Spruce

So what you're effectively saying is what you hear in this video:



Is the sonic equivalent of:

Best post so far today!

[mwalk]

I'm with open-road-Matt here. I love the AGF but don't always understand so many users' love for the K&K. I once posted a question about how to install a Fishman Matrix in a particular kind of guitar and got more than one "get a K&K" reply. Not helpful, and honestly kind of frustrating.

I think K&K has done an outstanding job of marketing and telling acoustic purists what they want to hear. Granted the install is very non-invasive, and that's great. But beyond that, it's just not great, IMHO.

[RustyAxe]

My initial experience with K&K mini started out rough. Boomy, bassy, muddy, attenuated trebles, I hated it. After much cajoling from folks here I bought a K&K Pure preamp ... and it became a different pickup. I now have K&K in two six-strings, and in my Guild 12. I have a JJB 220 (similar to K&K) in my Guild B50 bass.

[martingitdave]

The K&K design itself is usually not the issue. In order to get the full spectrum of sound from the pickup, an impedance matching preamp is required. Many amplifiers have their internal preamps tweaked to work with various impedance ranges. Several DI boxes and preamps are designed for under saddle pickups. It really is a matter of matching the right signal chain with the pickup for your guitar. The pickup is just a dumb tool. It needs the smarts to pair it with amplification. That said, for many folks who like the bold dreadnought sound, the K&K sounds good direct to a PA through a high Z connection, or low Z via DI box.

Not to sound like a broken record, but after years of messing with this stuff, I bought Taylors with ES2. No fuss and excellent tone. Honestly, it's just that simple. I've heard folks say the same about Fishman Aura, and Takamine systems.

[SpruceTop]

I like the newer Taylor guitars that have the new Expression System 2 (ES2). I also like installing the Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono system in my guitars that don't come equipped with a factory-installed system. Both the ES2 and Trance systems deliver a quite natural, feedback-resistant amplified tone with no need for external preamp/EQ devices.

Regards,

SpruceTop