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  #31  
Old 05-19-2015, 11:50 AM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
It takes a different technique to play well with an on-board pickup system compared to an external mic. It takes time and practice to develop a good technique to play well with on-board pickup systems because they amplify the immediacy of attack and musical and mechanical transients.

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SpruceTop
It's taken me years to be able to go from a clean loud fingerpicking tone, to the same same volume aggressively strummed volume. And what I mean by loud is big enough to fill a room, not coffee shop picking for a few people sipping expressos and not really listening.

The way I do it is having a 3 source system, a dual source pickup system, and a condensor mic. I run my B-Band XOM 2.2 equipped guitars through my pedal board. Everything is EQ'ed for what I consider my ideal tone for fingerpicking. The B-Band system is set about 60% UST and 40% soundboard transducer. On my pedal board, there is a slight bit of compression, a beat timed delay that is very subtle, and then a bit of hall reverb to smooth the tails of the delay. These FX are set so subtle that you really can't hear them unless you know what you're listening for. The delay time is set with a tap tempo button, so it's very easy to get the tempo right when I'm counting in the song. The FX take away that immediacy and quick attack of the pickup system, and make the guitar FEEL more natural as I'm playing. And, there's a volume pedal to make sure the volume is at the perfect level for the sound to fill the room, yet not be too loud for the people sitting very close. Then when it's time to strum, I pull back the volume on the pedal board, and then add a little low end at the mixer on the pickup channel. I do this for two reasons, it gives the guitar a little more low end drive so the audience can feel my rhythm, and, because when I have it set for fingerpicking, I like the low end to be a little thinner for clarity. I then lean into a condensor mic that I have mounted on a mini boom stand attached to my vocal mic stand. With practice, I've learned how close and at what angle to get to the mic to add a more acoustic sound, without the boxiness and feedback associated with microphones. It's the combination of the mic and pickup system that give the great strum tone. I feel anyone can get a good acoustic fingerpicking sound, but a proper full sounding strum, that doesn't have artifacts of pickup tone in it, that's a trick. If you notice when people do pickup demonstrations they very rarely demo a good strum tone. Because strumming will pretty quickly reveal deficiencies in a pickup system that harder to eq out than gentle fingerpicking.
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  #32  
Old 05-19-2015, 01:13 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I feel anyone can get a good acoustic fingerpicking sound, but a proper full sounding strum, that doesn't have artifacts of pickup tone in it, that's a trick. If you notice when people do pickup demonstrations they very rarely demo a good strum tone. Because strumming will pretty quickly reveal deficiencies in a pickup system that harder to eq out than gentle fingerpicking.
+1! The flatpick is the enemy of many pickup systems!

I'm impressed by your dedication at working to achieve the live tone you desire in various playing modes!

Regards,

SpruceTop
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  #33  
Old 05-19-2015, 03:34 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
+1! The flatpick is the enemy of many pickup systems!

I'm impressed by your dedication at working to achieve the live tone you desire in various playing modes!

Regards,

SpruceTop
Thank you, I really try as hard as I can to get the job done. I'm convinced the tone, and the volume that I play at, has gotten me the repeat gigs. I have had steady weekly gigs at various places with some being over 10 years, and most of my gigs I've had for over 5. And even with all that gigging, it's constant evolution to keep the gigs, and to make the job easier. Along with always writing new songs, or rearranging different covers, my last few years I've been working on reducing the size and weight in gear, and the amount of gear that I take to the gigs, so that my work is less, and my days are shorter. Many times I'll do two, or sometimes three, 3 hour gigs in a day, so shorter setup and breakdown times make those days go much better. Fortunately some really good pieces of gear have hit the scene that help with that.
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  #34  
Old 05-19-2015, 03:45 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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rockabilliy, would you say then that the B-Band system still struggles with strumming? I listened to your recommendation and purchased the A2.2 XOM but have yet to install it. I do aggressive strumming so I am a bit worried that I will have issues with it when I strum hard.
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  #35  
Old 05-19-2015, 06:19 PM
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…with four guitars with K&K's, and knowing that I like the combination of the K&K and the Red-Eye, I just decided to stick with that. For consistencys sake if for no other reason.
Hi Gb…

Consistency is the best reason to unify your system. All my guitars have the same pickup rig and interchangeably use my preamps. I normally only take one preamp and stage amp to a gig, even if I take multiple guitars.



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  #36  
Old 05-20-2015, 03:05 AM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
rockabilliy, would you say then that the B-Band system still struggles with strumming? I listened to your recommendation and purchased the A2.2 XOM but have yet to install it. I do aggressive strumming so I am a bit worried that I will have issues with it when I strum hard.
No I wouldn't, it's one of the best for strumming, I just feel adding a mic to it is the final piece to the puzzle.

When I don't have a mic in front of it, I just back down the gain a bit and roll more to the AST side to get the top drive. It seems all USTs are sensitive to harder strumming and get that quack tone, but the AST side really helps to balance that out. The trick without a mic is to rehearse both strumming and fingerpicking and see what kind of gain you need at the PA/AMP end and no how to adjust on the fly. So I say, hurry up and get the pickup in there, and when you install it, make sure to put a little piece of cotton or felt or something soft in the hole where the UST passes through the bridge plate. The only problem I've had with the B-Band is a slight metallic tone that I've heard in loud volume situations, and the soft stuff cures that! Also make sure you mount the preamp close enough to allow the pickup leads to reach it. In other words, mount the pickups where you want them and see how much lead you have before you mount the preamp. It's only really a problem if you mount the AST behind the bridge plate instead of under it. But from my experience the positioning of the AST isn't too overly important. It's behind the bridge plate on 2 of my guitars, and under on one. And it sounds great in both places!
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2015, 06:42 AM
Gypsyblue Gypsyblue is offline
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About this strumming thing and K&K pickups: Like Larry, I have friends who are strummers who sound great with K&K's.

I would say that rough or sloppy playing is the #1 enemy of K&K's...and most likely of all pickups.

A close friend of mine asked me a few years ago what kind of pickups to put in her Martin OM. I told her I liked K&K's.

A few months later I went to hear her in concert and she was getting a great sound plugged straight into the PA - no preamp. I asked her what pickups she had in her guitar and she said "I had the pickups you recommended put in." They were K&K's Pures.

She had a nice fingerpicking style...but she was also an enthusiastic strummer.

It's undeniable that the guy who I mentioned in post #1 sounded better playing through a microphone than he did playing my guitar with K&K's.

Maybe having a little air between his guitar and the mic helped. Maybe the K&K's were just to sensitive and picked up all of the noise generated by his rough technique.

But I really like K&K's and I think most reasonably accomplished players and most professionals would like them too.

But clearly they are not for everyone because the reality is that there are some players who, for whatever reason, don't care for them and who feel they sound better using something else. Maybe they play in a loud band or something.

Regardless, I wouldn't let that dissuade most players from trying them because my experience is that the K&K's sound excellent in most guitars and in most settings.

In their price range (about $100 if you install them yourself) I don't think they can be beat.
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2015, 09:28 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
No I wouldn't, it's one of the best for strumming, I just feel adding a mic to it is the final piece to the puzzle.

When I don't have a mic in front of it, I just back down the gain a bit and roll more to the AST side to get the top drive. It seems all USTs are sensitive to harder strumming and get that quack tone, but the AST side really helps to balance that out. The trick without a mic is to rehearse both strumming and fingerpicking and see what kind of gain you need at the PA/AMP end and no how to adjust on the fly. So I say, hurry up and get the pickup in there, and when you install it, make sure to put a little piece of cotton or felt or something soft in the hole where the UST passes through the bridge plate. The only problem I've had with the B-Band is a slight metallic tone that I've heard in loud volume situations, and the soft stuff cures that! Also make sure you mount the preamp close enough to allow the pickup leads to reach it. In other words, mount the pickups where you want them and see how much lead you have before you mount the preamp. It's only really a problem if you mount the AST behind the bridge plate instead of under it. But from my experience the positioning of the AST isn't too overly important. It's behind the bridge plate on 2 of my guitars, and under on one. And it sounds great in both places!
Excellent, thanks again for the input! I might do the install myself and just give it a try. The A2.2 can be installed with a stereo output jack, which would allow for an internal mic to be added to the mix. However, I can see this becoming a bit of a feedback nightmare and it would definitely complicate matters. I might just try the pickup as is for now and see what I think.

The only issue I see is that the B-Band UST is thinner than the Matrix UST that's currently in my guitar. My action is a bit high already so it might not be an issue but I am tempted to wait until after my next show to have my luthier properly install the pickup and make a new saddle/do a proper set up.
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  #39  
Old 05-21-2015, 12:42 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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I would just use the 2.2 by itself, it really is a great sounding pickup. As for the install why don't you just sand the bottom of your saddle yourself. Lay some sandpaper on a hard straight surface and run the saddle over it until it's perfect. Mark on the saddle where you want to get down to and go for it Take your time and you should be alright. You could always do the B-band install minus the saddle part and let the luthier do the final setup.
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  #40  
Old 05-21-2015, 04:02 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I would just use the 2.2 by itself, it really is a great sounding pickup. As for the install why don't you just sand the bottom of your saddle yourself. Lay some sandpaper on a hard straight surface and run the saddle over it until it's perfect. Mark on the saddle where you want to get down to and go for it Take your time and you should be alright. You could always do the B-band install minus the saddle part and let the luthier do the final setup.
It's actually the opposite problem! The Fishman Matrix UST is currently in my guitar and it's thicker than the B-Band UST. If I install the B-Band UST and remove the Matrix then my action will be a bit lower than normal. However, it is a bit high as is so I might just install it and if I like the results then I will take it to my luthier to have a proper saddle made.
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  #41  
Old 05-21-2015, 04:02 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I would just use the 2.2 by itself, it really is a great sounding pickup. As for the install why don't you just sand the bottom of your saddle yourself. Lay some sandpaper on a hard straight surface and run the saddle over it until it's perfect. Mark on the saddle where you want to get down to and go for it Take your time and you should be alright. You could always do the B-band install minus the saddle part and let the luthier do the final setup.
A refinement I've developed for saddle-height adjustment is to place the marked-up saddle, upside down in a small vise on which both jaws (preferably smooth-faced) are of equal height when closed under pressure. Then, using a file, I file the bottom of the bridge saddle down until I just kiss the tops of both vise jaws with the file. This ensures that the saddle ends up square, front-to-back, and from one end to the other. I've found that sanding a saddle with sandpaper--even on a hard surface--ends up sanding away the ends and/or center of the saddle more because of unequal finger pressure along the saddle and a plowing effect of the saddle in to the sandpaper on each end. It can also be difficult to maintain squareness front-to-back with freehand sanding.

Being a machinist, the best way I've found for adjusting saddle height is to use a Bridgeport milling machine and a test indicator along the saddle to square it in the milling vise and then milling off the required amount of saddle stock. This is the ultimate method of ensuring squareness and desired amount of stock removal.

The above two methods are especially good for ensuring good saddle-bottom contact when using a UST pickup.

SpruceTop
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  #42  
Old 05-21-2015, 04:30 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
A refinement I've developed for saddle-height adjustment is to place the marked-up saddle, upside down in a small vise on which both jaws (preferably smooth-faced) are of equal height when closed under pressure. Then, using a file, I file the bottom of the bridge saddle down until I just kiss the tops of both vise jaws with the file. This ensures that the saddle ends up square, front-to-back, and from one end to the other. I've found that sanding a saddle with sandpaper--even on a hard surface--ends up sanding away the ends and/or center of the saddle more because of unequal finger pressure along the saddle and a plowing effect of the saddle in to the sandpaper on each end. It can also be difficult to maintain squareness front-to-back with freehand sanding.

Being a machinist, the best way I've found for adjusting saddle height is to use a Bridgeport milling machine and a test indicator along the saddle to square it in the milling vise and then milling off the required amount of saddle stock. This is the ultimate method of ensuring squareness and desired amount of stock removal.

The above two methods are especially good for ensuring good saddle-bottom contact when using a UST pickup.

SpruceTop
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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  #43  
Old 05-21-2015, 07:49 PM
Gypsyblue Gypsyblue is offline
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I just learned that K&K has changed their instructions for installing the Pure Minis.

They now recommend mounting the sensor that formerly was mounted between the E & B strings so that it's under the E string.

From what I understand this improves the treble to bass relationship.

You know, if you turn up the treble on an amp but leave the bass where it is and then turn down the overall volume until the treble is the same volume as it was before you increased it, reducing the overall volume will have the effect of making the amp sound like you've turned down the bass.

I don't know, but that might be what K&K is trying to accomplish.

Might make some of those who found the K&K's to have to much bass or to sound tubby or woofy happier.

That would not be me though. Obviously, I like them!
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Last edited by Gypsyblue; 05-22-2015 at 07:39 AM.
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  #44  
Old 05-25-2015, 10:49 PM
jlipoth jlipoth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsyblue View Post
I just learned that K&K has changed their instructions for installing the Pure Minis.

They now recommend mounting the sensor that formerly was mounted between the E & B strings so that it's under the E string.

From what I understand this improves the treble to bass relationship.

You know, if you turn up the treble on an amp but leave the bass where it is and then turn down the overall volume until the treble is the same volume as it was before you increased it, reducing the overall volume will have the effect of making the amp sound like you've turned down the bass.

I don't know, but that might be what K&K is trying to accomplish.

Might make some of those who found the K&K's to have to much bass or to sound tubby or woofy happier.

That would not be me though. Obviously, I like them!
That is exactly what I think they are doing and so far in my experience, it is quite helpful.
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