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  #46  
Old 01-02-2010, 05:48 PM
GordonHLau GordonHLau is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
In other words, you are making an assumption. It is entirely likely that the K10 will have more headroom but that remains to be established. There are amplifiers whose dynamic headroom is much higher than their continuous power rating and others whose headroom is closer to their continuous power rating. One would also have to factor in speaker efficiency and whether power limiters are being used and if so, what their characteristics are. Another factor is the superior projection of a line array.
I think I can make that assumption since I've TRIED the BagAmp and have tried other quality powered 10" PA speakers such as the Mackie SRM350s. Any powered 10" PA speaker worth their salt is going to have more headroom than the BagAmp. There are people making assumptions far worse than I am here when they have tried neither a K10 or a BagAmp. I find that very amusing. Assumptions on sound quality, well that's a different story which is why I need to try the K10 first.

Even if the QSC K10's headroom is 12 db less than the max SPL stated (and yes I'm counting continuous power and limiters not engaged), its still going to be significantly louder than what I heard from the BagAmp. The superior projection of a line array is not going make up that much of a difference.

Gordon
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  #47  
Old 01-02-2010, 06:05 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Regarding "Line arrays";

True "Line Arrays" are "flown" systems, as you see in this picture;

http://www.eaw.com/products/linearra...TL720Array.jpg

Line arrays are most commonly "J" configurations, as you can see in the photo. Line array loudspeakers generally have a wide horizontal dispersion, but a very narrow vertical dispersion(often under 20 degrees). "Flying" the array over the crowd, allows the various speakers cabinets to be "aimed" at various sectors of the audience, for best coverage. Those speakers at the bottom of the "J" are aimed at the audience in front, and the "curve", covers those seated progressively further back.

Consumer systems with stage-level mini-towers, calling themselves "Line arrays", are being a little "creative" in their marketing in my opinion.

Bob
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  #48  
Old 01-02-2010, 06:43 PM
Noiseboy Noiseboy is offline
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Originally Posted by sventvkg View Post
hey spruce, i'm sorry man..If they sound good to you, then use em. I'm a HIGHLY experienced Engineer, both live and studio and know zillions in the industry both touring major artists and shows and local level and no one thinks highly of the mackies.,.yes they are popular because of good marketing and the pricepoint at the time they came out. To my ears they sound boomy and brittle..more of a DJ cab then a live music PA. My assessment is shared by many who's opinions I HIGHLY value as well, but YMMV.
Sven, I beg to differ with your view of the SRM-450's. These speakers have been pretty well regarded from inception, not due to marketing but to the fact that they were the first well behaved, decent sounding plastic box on the market.

I've heard of thermal issues with the early boxes, but in the years that I've been using my pair (purchased used from a rental company) I have had no issues whatsoever.

With regard to your assertion that "no one" thinks highly of the Mackies, I'll take that with a grain of salt. I know quite a folks who use them and value them for what they are.

I think they hold their own on sound quality, and are more than capable for acoustic acts in small venues. Are there better boxes in the marketplace? No doubt. Can they do a credible job? Absolutely.
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  #49  
Old 01-02-2010, 06:44 PM
kramster kramster is offline
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Tuff to bend a Bose...But should help.
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  #50  
Old 01-02-2010, 06:49 PM
Noiseboy Noiseboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
Regarding "Line arrays";

True "Line Arrays" are "flown" systems, as you see in this picture;

http://www.eaw.com/products/linearra...TL720Array.jpg

Line arrays are most commonly "J" configurations, as you can see in the photo. Line array loudspeakers generally have a wide horizontal dispersion, but a very narrow vertical dispersion(often under 20 degrees). "Flying" the array over the crowd, allows the various speakers cabinets to be "aimed" at various sectors of the audience, for best coverage. Those speakers at the bottom of the "J" are aimed at the audience in front, and the "curve", covers those seated progressively further back.

Consumer systems with stage-level mini-towers, calling themselves "Line arrays", are being a little "creative" in their marketing in my opinion.

Bob
Individual speakers don't become "line" sources until the height of the array is tall enough to allow it to function as one. Nor do line arrays have to be flown, thought it is often advantageous rig from the ceiling.
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  #51  
Old 01-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Noiseboy Noiseboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
You're NOT gonna see Pink Floyd tour with Digital Power Amps and neodymium loaded turbo packs and for good reason
Don't count on it. Class D amplifiers, light weight enclosures, neodymium magnets, and digital signal processing are here to stay.
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  #52  
Old 01-02-2010, 07:47 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Noiseboy View Post
Don't count on it. Class D amplifiers, light weight enclosures, neodymium magnets, and digital signal processing are here to stay.
As well as other choices.
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  #53  
Old 01-02-2010, 08:05 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
The issue, for me, is that the QSC K8 probably does not have an adequate bass response for acoustic guitar and a test using vocals doesn't provide any indication as to how deep the bass response is. Inexplicably, QSC specifications don't provide the industry standard -3 dB frequency response point.
Hi Herb,

I think the QSC K8 does have the necessary low-frequency response to properly amplify an acoustic guitar without any of its tone enhancements engaged. Having the DEEP switch engaged yielded to an absurdly pronounced low-end to my voice. This might help an electric bass come through, although I don't think I'd want the constant pounding an electric bass would provide going into this speaker or any other brand of non-bass-specific portable PA speaker. My actual choice, if buying into this K series would be the K10 with its 10" woofer, which would be even better at low-end response than the K8.

Regards,

SpruceTop
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  #54  
Old 01-02-2010, 08:42 PM
GordonHLau GordonHLau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
The issue, for me, is that the QSC K8 probably does not have an adequate bass response for acoustic guitar and a test using vocals doesn't provide any indication as to how deep the bass response is. Inexplicably, QSC specifications don't provide the industry standard -3 dB frequency response point.
And this isn't an assumption Herb?

I just heard the K8 at Guitar Center. As SpruceTop stated, I also think it has adequate bass response for an acoustic guitar. I only heard it with music source but I can make an "assumption" based on the music I was hearing that it should handle the low freq of acoustic guitar with no problems. There is a DEEP switch too that gives it extra low end at the expense of headroom. It sounded significantly better than the less expensive Behringers and Harbringer(?) I heard next to it. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the Mackie SRM450 to play because it wasn't hooked up. Oh well. I'm sure the Mackies were in the same ballpark soundwise.

Oh yeah, they do get loud too. But I already knew they would have the headroom I needed.

Gordon
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  #55  
Old 01-03-2010, 12:14 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
This is strictly for MY purposes. IF "I" were to go for a BagAmp "I" am expecting to be using a small mixer with effects. So for ME the BagAmp vs K10 are in the same ballpark for cost, portability, and use.

I would also like to say as the owner of a few different QSC amps in the past and present, I am very disappointed in their lacl of info in the specs for the K series and it shows a lack of professionalism.
The BagAmp lack of specs I have no comment for.

Most of the last part of this discussion leaves me thinking it's best to stay with a rack mount power amp and passive speakers.
(Maybe I should look into those 803's. Where IS Chris anyway???)
I hate quoting myself. So is it best to stay with a standard power amp and a high quality passive speaker? Where is Chris anyway???
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  #56  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:48 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Bob, not to worry. By the time you finally decide on a product, everything will have changed. There will be no more powered speakers or power amps. Speakers will be neither passive or active. The only speakers still in existence will be found in museums. Sound will be transmitted by crystal clear mind link. I/O's will no longer be an issue; you I, and the audience O's. Also, the audience will select their own effects, depending on their preferences.

The good news is that you will have plenty of money when this new technology arrives, rather than going through a constant stream of upgrades like the rest of us and losing a little on each transaction.
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2010, 07:03 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by GordonHLau View Post
And this isn't an assumption Herb?

I just heard the K8 at Guitar Center. As SpruceTop stated, I also think it has adequate bass response for an acoustic guitar. I only heard it with music source but I can make an "assumption" based on the music I was hearing that it should handle the low freq of acoustic guitar with no problems. There is a DEEP switch too that gives it extra low end at the expense of headroom. It sounded significantly better than the less expensive Behringers and Harbringer(?) I heard next to it. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the Mackie SRM450 to play because it wasn't hooked up. Oh well. I'm sure the Mackies were in the same ballpark soundwise.

Oh yeah, they do get loud too. But I already knew they would have the headroom I needed.

Gordon
Yes it is an assumption as indicated by my use of the word, probably, but it is based on experience with 10 inch speakers. For example, the Mackie SRM350v2, which has a 10-inch speaker, is down 3 dB at 83 Hz. I wouldn't want a speaker's bass response to begin to drop off above the low E of a guitar.
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  #58  
Old 01-03-2010, 07:39 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Bob, not to worry. By the time you finally decide on a product, everything will have changed. There will be no more powered speakers or power amps. Speakers will be neither passive or active. The only speakers still in existence will be found in museums. Sound will be transmitted by crystal clear mind link. I/O's will no longer be an issue; you I, and the audience O's. Also, the audience will select their own effects, depending on their preferences.

The good news is that you will have plenty of money when this new technology arrives, rather than going through a constant stream of upgrades like the rest of us and losing a little on each transaction.

This is working out just like a job I worked on years ago. I worked for a foreman that constantly came back to my partner and I to tell us to do the job a different way after we were done. Believe it or not he came back again with different plans. This was happening everyday. We started calling him Johnny 3 times. After a while, my partner and I started working REALLY slow. The foreman continued doing the same thing. After a while we told him how much money we were saving the company by working so slow. He looked at us confused. We went on to tell him that the slower we worked, the less we had to undo to do over and we saved the time taking everything apart. We were laughing so hard as we explained this that we were falling on the floor. (My partner was a real commedian and usually had me laughing all day) We were falling apart by now. For some reason the foreman wasn't laughing. It just caused us to laugh even more.

One of these days I'll make a decision. I am presently putting together a repetoire to play out with. I was primarily an electric player in bands with very little lead vocals so I need time getting my act together. (my last band in my signature) I get to a few Open Mics to test songs and to see the general reaction to my performance. I also get to see others in the same scenerio and some who play out fairly regularly. I think I'm doing a pretty good job and when I see "some" that are playing regularly it causes me to feel pretty confident that I will eventually do pretty well. Also some of the PA gear I've seen and heard is barely adequate. I'm not afraid to spend a few bucks for something worthwhile. I recently injured my shoulder. (Surgery coming up) I do not need to rush into a decision right away. Maybe the scenerio described above will be true and I won't even need speakers by that time. (The slower I work, the more money I save)
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  #59  
Old 01-03-2010, 07:59 AM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Bob, good luck with the surgery.
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  #60  
Old 01-03-2010, 08:09 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Bob, good luck with the surgery.
Thank You! I appreciate that!

Just ran across another speaker that I don't believe I ever hear mentioned. The Mackie SRM350v2. Much cheaper than the K10. Seems the 450 is mentione quite a bit but not the 350. Has anyone heard these?
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