cutting tons of highs on western guitars, am i alone?

[jonas kstrand]

im really allergic to bright nice highs on acoustics.

not so much with other recordings but for myself i tend to use the oldest strings possible + dark mics + eq away most of whats made it to the actual recording. and then im lift with something that sounds more like a piano. actually thats what im almost aming for now adays.

ok im exagerating but it really is a fight between the dark and the bright every time.

it doesnt feel healty really.
vocals and stringy bright fingerpicked guitars never felt quite right for me.
am i alone?

[runamuck]

You're not alone. I like new sounding strings on the wound strings but the trebles,= I like to hear them round and buttery. It's a matter of having the right guitar, a really good mic (not the cheap harsh imported crap) and a really, really good EQ - either hardware or the software emulations that Acustica is making.

Jim

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by jonas kstrand

im really allergic to bright nice highs on acoustics.

not so much with other recordings but for myself i tend to use the oldest strings possible + dark mics + eq away most of whats made it to the actual recording. and then im lift with something that sounds more like a piano. actually thats what im almost aming for now adays.

ok im exagerating but it really is a fight between the dark and the bright every time.

it doesnt feel healty really.
vocals and stringy bright fingerpicked guitars never felt quite right for me.
am i alone?

Hey Jonas,
I'd say no, you're not alone. I recently sold a Taylor W14ce because the tone was too bright for me even though the guitar was loud and the action really easy. In that case it was the mids overpowering the bass strings. In terms of recording given that the range of an acoustic guitar is roughly 80Hz to a little under 800Hz a lot of high end probably has more to do with a frequency boost from the mic rather than the instrument itself.
I listened to Ordinary Night on your soundcloud page and would say just keep doing what you're doing: it sounds great!
Trevor

[jonas kstrand]

runamuck! its great advice. im a gearslut so mics/pres/eqs are top notch
maby one `problem` is that the guitar that sits best with my voice is a 200 euro vintage levin. not a great guitar but good on some stuff. to low action (i think esp during winter times) by the way is that actually a comon problem?

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

Hey Jonas,
I'd say no, you're not alone. I recently sold a Taylor W14ce because the tone was too bright for me even though the guitar was loud and the action really easy. In that case it was the mids overpowering the bass strings. In terms of recording given that the range of an acoustic guitar is roughly 80Hz to a little under 800Hz a lot of high end probably has more to do with a frequency boost from the mic rather than the instrument itself.
I listened to Ordinary Night on your soundcloud page and would say just keep doing what you're doing: it sounds great!
Trevor

thank you for the kind words, i never get really happy with guitar sound. i had to stop playing for several years because it was like hearing myself talking for hours on end actually. mic is neumann u89 so really dark allready. the frequencyranges you mentioned maks me think the mecanical noises from the stings are higher up. cos theres something up there... im wondering about choosing strings too. are there any really really dark strings out there? should one do as with cymbals perhaps. put them in the ground in the backyard for a couple of weeks. seriosly.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by jonas kstrand

im really allergic to bright nice highs on acoustics.

not so much with other recordings but for myself i tend to use the oldest strings possible + dark mics + eq away most of whats made it to the actual recording. and then im lift with something that sounds more like a piano. actually thats what im almost aming for now adays.

ok im exagerating but it really is a fight between the dark and the bright every time.

it doesnt feel healty really.
vocals and stringy bright fingerpicked guitars never felt quite right for me.
am i alone?

Have you tried a crossover?

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageGuitarCrossover.html

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by jonas kstrand

im really allergic to bright nice highs on acoustics.

not so much with other recordings but for myself i tend to use the oldest strings possible + dark mics + eq away most of whats made it to the actual recording. and then im lift with something that sounds more like a piano. actually thats what im almost aming for now adays.

ok im exagerating but it really is a fight between the dark and the bright every time.

it doesnt feel healty really.
vocals and stringy bright fingerpicked guitars never felt quite right for me.
am i alone?

have you tried any of nickel wound for acoustic or the Tony Rice Monel ( also nickel I believe) "Retro" strings from martin ? I think these are going to be my next strings to try.

[Pitar]

This is one reason I left steel string guitars and am now a convert to the nylon string classical and crossover. The sonic range of a steel string guitar through (any) Piezo-sourced system provides a sound that cannot be tamed because it significantly reshapes the tone. Even through a nice condenser microphone some tone-shaping is still needed. It isn't (noticeably) present in a plugged nylon string guitar.

In a steel string guitar I prefer the unplugged sound of a fresh steel string change. Nuanced control of the trebles (attack, pluck, etc) will "keep balance in the force" in the unplugged sound. When the brilliance diminishes to the rolled-off sound you lose the availability of the treble clarity. To me it's evidence of a dying set of strings and loss of what the guitar can give.

Piezo (UST/SBT) with steel strings is awful. It completely reshapes the sound across the spectrum and hardly compels me to plug in. Nylon strings are simply not affected so negatively.

My (past) recordings of steel string are all via microphone placement in the vicinity of the 12th fret. My recordings of nylon string are plugged through either on-boards straight in (interface) or by mic'ing the amp (Fishman SA220). IOW, recording the nylon string sound is not so sensitive to method and provides a much more enjoyable, balanced and available register.

[jonas kstrand]

many interesting things here!

rudy4 - never heard the word but kinda seen those guitars. i was thinking about getting a nylons string guitar, i like the wider fret and played when i was younger. up here in scandinavia when we say acoustic guitar nylon is what we refer to. what would be on the plus side with a crossover for recording do you think? less bass boom maby?

i guess i want the steelstring sound after all most of the time.

kevwind! a friend was talking about theese tony rice strings too actually. havent experimented much. maby try thicker strings too.
i never change strings. theyre stone dead. but allready dark in tone AND stone dead would be even better i suppose.

pitar, ive never triet pietzo or any type of inbuilt mic but i came up with the idea of using a thick windscreen on the mics as a natural high frequency filter just now. to depend less on eq in the end. dont know whats better yet.

[jonas kstrand]

deleted, double post...

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by jonas kstrand

many interesting things here!

rudy4 - never heard the word but kinda seen those guitars. i was thinking about getting a nylons string guitar, i like the wider fret and played when i was younger. up here in scandinavia when we say acoustic guitar nylon is what we refer to. what would be on the plus side with a crossover for recording do you think? less bass boom maby?

i guess i want the steel string sound after all most of the time.

kevwind! a friend was talking about theese tony rice strings too actually. havent experimented much. maby try thicker strings too.
i never change strings. theyre stone dead. but allready dark in tone AND stone dead would be even better i suppose.

pitar, ive never triet pietzo or any type of inbuilt mic but i came up with the idea of using a thick windscreen on the mics as a natural high frequency filter just now. to depend less on eq in the end. dont know whats better yet.

If you want an example follow the links to "crossover guitar" on my web page, or type crossover guitar into Youtube. The string choices of folks that play crossover are generally selected towards a much brighter tone than what a classical player would prefer. (Still nothing like the bell-like tone of an acoustic with new strings.)

The neck width is only slightly wider than a standard steel string and the tonality isn't really anything like the standard classical guitar that you've encountered. The tonality is much less abrasive than a steel-strung guitar and it sounds like that's what you're looking for.

"Boominess" shouldn't be a descriptor of recorded tone for any guitar unless you're sticking a mic in front of the sound hole and you're picking up the actual physically focused projection of wave energy as it exits the guitar body. That's generally a no-no when recording in any case. It works exactly like picking up plosives from a vocalist who is singing on axis into a sensitive mic. A guitar doesn't over-extend a mic diaphragm, but the focused physical wave energy isn't what we hear as it dissipates at a reasonable distance from the instrument.

Also, it's best not to concentrate on "recorded tone". If an instrument pleases your sensitivities when you're playing it then it can be recorded to duplicate that sound when it's recorded and played back. In other words, find an instrument that pleases you and the rest falls into place. You should never rely on "fix in the mix" to make something that you don't like into something that you do. That's not the way we listen when we play and shouldn't be anything we strive for when recording.

[jonas kstrand]

- rudy4
interesting topic this!

heres my 50 OCD cents

i have a guitar that i love to play at home but that dont sit well with my voice so thats when i end up tweaking an allready good guitar tone to make my voice sit in it.. but its like a two piece puzzle (a really difficult one, in a fever dream) of caurse you can try different mics and mic positions but having to go overboard with that is like allready trying to polish a turd on its the way in :/ but then in some keys and vocal registers the same guitar sounds really good recorded and just like what i want so im happy i have it!

case to case with everything allways.

i know youll hate me for this but my main concern if i was to buy a new guitar would be recordability (together with my voice) more than having something nice to play at home actually.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by jonas kstrand

- rudy4
interesting topic this!

heres my 50 OCD cents

i have a guitar that i love to play at home but that dont sit well with my voice so thats when i end up tweaking an allready good guitar tone to make my voice sit in it.. but its like a two piece puzzle (a really difficult one, in a fever dream) of caurse you can try different mics and mic positions but having to go overboard with that is like allready trying to polish a turd on its the way in :/ but then in some keys and vocal registers the same guitar sounds really good recorded and just like what i want so im happy i have it!

case to case with everything allways.

i know youll hate me for this but my main concern if i was to buy a new guitar would be recordability (together with my voice) more than having something nice to play at home actually.

Nope. I'm not a hater!
It sounds like you've already found the answer by combining appropriate keys and where your voice is happiest.

If you're happy with your rig than work with what you got.

[H165]

My opinion here can be understood by listening to the early nylon/steel blend of PPM. I strive for this sound constantly; the balance between the notes and dynamics and the tone. 'Course it wouldn't hurt being able to play like that....

[runamuck]

One other thought that's worked for me: try using larger gauge on the trebles:
If you use light gauge strings, change the first 3 strings to mediums.

[jonas kstrand]

thats a really good advice runamuck! ill try that!

h165, never heard of PPM before but guitars sound super nice!!!