Adjust truss rod vs. raise nut vs. raise saddle

[leatherlunch]

Hi everyone.

I have a Dean acoustic which I recently started having issues with after taking it to a luthier. I was hoping for some advice on how I might possibly solve the problem myself.

I bought an L.R. Baggs Anthem pickup which needed to be installed in the body of the guitar. The luthier that I took it to took the liberty of making some changes to my instrument while he did so. He placed two shims under the nut and said he had to raise the saddle, although I'm not sure he did.

In any case, when I got the guitar back it had a completely different feel and action to it, obviously. We had a discussion about why he did it, which I won't get into, and he then filed down the string grooves on the nut to lower the action at the top.

So, the problem is now fret buzz. The guitar always had buzz on the low E and A string (particularly when I take it down to drop D tuning), and in the past I slipped a small piece of foil under the nut. I'll still likely do that but the buzz is really quite bad now.

In addition to this I'm getting fret buzz on the high E and B strings, which I find especially puzzling.

So my question is this: I gather putting a shim under the nut, putting one under the saddle, or adjusting the truss rod will all accomplish the goal of raising the strings up a few microns and hopefully alleviate the buzz. But which one has the most detrimental affect on the tone (ie. which will make the notes go sharp as I play up the finger board)? Before all this my guitar had beautiful action and didn't go sharp up high, and didn't really have a problem with fret buzz. Obviously, I'd love to get back to where it once belonged.

Thanks for your help in advance. If there's anything else I need to tell you, please ask.

[Dan Carey]

Keep in mind that the truss rod is to set neck relief only. NOT for adjusting the action. Set the truss rod for a straight neck, and tweak the nut or saddle (or both as needed) for action adjustments.

[kydave]

This guy puts a shim under your nut, then files the nut slots down?!?!

Get another guy.

[harryboss1]

Originally Posted by Dan Carey

Keep in mind that the truss rod is to set neck relief only. NOT for adjusting the action. Set the truss rod for a straight neck, and tweak the nut or saddle (or both as needed) for action adjustments.

Very true...too many people adjust the truss rod for action. You need that certain amount of relief, the nut and saddle can be adjusted if need be first. I have learned a lot at www.frets.com
Much info there how to do setups and most anything else.

[tomana]

he's not a luthier, he's a wanna be ... as kydave said, move on and find someone who is the real deal. Stay away from Guitar Center (they are string putter on'ers, not luthiers) and such and talk to some musicians at clubs, etc and learn where the real luthiers are located. Often, they work from home and don't have need to advertise and, they charge accordingly for their expertise so be wise and pay what they ask for because a workman is worth his wages

[charles Tauber]

Difficult situation.

When you commission someone to do work on your guitar, he or she should only do the work asked for. If additional changes are needed, he or she should first contact you, explain what will be done, the reasons for needing to do the work and the cost to do that additional work. Only after your approval should he or she undertake the work. There should be no surprises when you pick up the guitar.

From your description, it sounds like it needs a proper setup, rather than just a bandaid fix. If you wish, you can read my description of a basic setup, and how to do one, here, called Basic Guitar Setup 101: http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html

The string height at the saddle and nut and the amount of relief in the neck and the compensation are all inter-related to optimize the playability/tuning of the guitar for your playing style. What is really needed is to have someone who is experienced optimize these factors for your playing style. It is difficult to do that via an internet discussion forum.

Be aware the under-the-saddle (piezo) elements can be very fussy to obtain an even response. You may run into those issues if you (or someone inexperienced) put a shim under your saddle.

My suggestion is to start by measuring the string height at each string from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of each string. You'll need a ruler calibrated in mm or 1/32" (or 1/64"). A typical string height is around 3/32", often a little lower on the higher strings. See how that compares to what you have now.

Next, "observe" how much bow is in the neck. Refer to the article I referenced for one method of doing so.

You mention that strings buzz. I assume you mean when played open, un-fretted. Do they buzz when fretted? If so, which frets?

Raising the string height at the saddle will have the greatest influence on intonation - the ability of the guitar to play in tune. However, unless the change is "significant", it won't affect it very much. Ideally, you have a digital tuner calibrated in "cents" that will allow you to measure the difference between the 12th fret harmonic and the 12th fret fretted note. That will give some measure of how good the intonation is.

[leatherlunch]

Actually, the luthier is from one of the premier guitar shops here in Toronto. I'm sure if he was here he'd defend what he did for one reason or the other. He's not a bad guy, but I won't be going there again if only because it's way out of my way to get there.

That said, I'm not sure how I'd find one of these read deal underground luthiers anyway. I don't really go out anymore with a baby at home. I suppose I could check out craigslist, but that seems slightly more frightening than trying out a different guitar repair shop.

He put the shims in, which I didn't ask for. Filing the slots down was what he did after I complained the strings felt too high.

In any case, I know that the truss rod is for neck relief first and foremost, but I've heard of people putting a very slight up-bow to increase the gap.

You mention that strings buzz. I assume you mean when played open, un-fretted. Do they buzz when fretted? If so, which frets?

Raising the string height at the saddle will have the greatest influence on intonation - the ability of the guitar to play in tune. However, unless the change is "significant", it won't affect it very much. Ideally, you have a digital tuner calibrated in "cents" that will allow you to measure the difference between the 12th fret harmonic and the 12th fret fretted note. That will give some measure of how good the intonation is.

They don't buzz unfretted. Really it's on the 1st through 4 frets that I experience buzzing.

Thanks for the info on the raising the saddle height. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking to learn.

Ideally, I figured some combination of small tweaks might work best. For example, small raising of nut height, small raising of saddle height, slight up-bow of neck. Or something like that.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by leatherlunch

Actually, the luthier is from one of the premier guitar shops here in Toronto...That said, I'm not sure how I'd find one of these read deal underground luthiers anyway.

I'm in Brampton. I don't advertise. I've been making and repairing guitars for more than 30 years. By now, I'd like to think I'm a "real deal" kinda guy.

You are welcome to bring it by my shop for a free estimate of what needs to be done to get it to play as you like. If you decide you want me to do the work, you can watch while I do it and I will explain to you what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.

[leatherlunch]

I'm sure you're the real deal. That said, getting out to Brampton isn't super convenient for me. Any chance you have a recommendation or colleague near the downtown core of Toronto you could refer me to?

Since you'd know who I'm talking about, the original guitar shop I went to was Long & McQuade. Are they not reliable in your books?

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by leatherlunch

<<snip>>

Are they not reliable in your books?

Anyone that does work without authorization is not reliable.

Further, anyone that shims a nut and then decides (for whatever reasons) to then file the nut slots is doubly-unreliable.

Charles Tauber *is* reliable, and any inconvenience in traveling to him is worth double in knowing the work will be done correctly.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dan Carey

Keep in mind that the truss rod is to set neck relief only. NOT for adjusting the action. Set the truss rod for a straight neck, and tweak the nut or saddle (or both as needed) for action adjustments.

HI Dan...

You don't consider neck relief part of the action?

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

HI Dan...

You don't consider neck relief part of the action?

It's not, when you deal with setting the proper relief *first*, and before string height at the nut and string height at the 12th fret are examined...

...or it *is*, when done first, and then left alone.

It's certainly not the way to go about finalizing the action on any guitar, that is, using the truss-rod, after the fact, to make a change in string height by increasing the relief in the neck to an inappropriate amount.

Once the relief is correct, then accurate/reliable changes to action can be effected.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

It's not, when you deal with that first, and before string height at the nut and string height at the 12th fret are examined...

Hi Larry...

Setting the relief properly is still an integral and important part of setting the action properly. Just because it's the first step in your formula/approach doesn't mean it's not part of the process, nor that it cannot be a reliable way of tweaking the action later.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Larry...

Setting the relief properly is still an integral and important part of setting the action properly. Just because it's the first step in your formula/approach doesn't mean it's not part of the process, nor that it cannot be a reliable way of tweaking the action later.

If tweaking the truss-rod is done to effectively lower or raise the action, and this then leaves the relief in a less-than-optimal position, well, that's the wrong way to deal with this...and it is not considered a part of a correct set-up procedure.

Of course changing relief changes the action. That's *so* not the point.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by leatherlunch

Any chance you have a recommendation or colleague near the downtown core of Toronto you could refer me to?

Toronto has, quite possibly, the greatest number of guitar makers per capita of anywhere in North America. Let me think about it for a minute of who amongst those I'd recommend that I know does repair work.

Since you'd know who I'm talking about, the original guitar shop I went to was Long & McQuade. Are they not reliable in your books?

For those not from The Great White North (aka "Canada"), Long & McQuade is Canada's equivalent of Guitar Center. There may be isolated stores that have good repair people available, but generally, "Not so much".

The 12th Fret is a reliable guitar shop. Ring Music is a reliable guitar shop. The Millwheel, rest its soul, was a reliable guitar shop. I'd highly recommend either of those.