Curiosity on price points for Classical versus Steel String

[PeteD]

So I'm a hobbyist luthier and a hack guitar player. My interest in guitars is as much about the beauty, art and construction of the instrument as it about playing.

One question that I have always had regards the relative price points on Classical versus Steel Stringed guitars. It seems that the price points of a mid to higher end Steel String tend to be much lower than a comparably classified Classical guitar. For example, it seems only a few SS producers are pricing above $10,000 USD, whereas there seem to be a decent % of Classical guitars priced near or above that point.

One might argue that the construction of a SS may be more difficult on the surface. The top, back and sides are larger (so more costly), the neck joint is more complicated (one piece versus two), the fingerboard radiused, truss rod, usually more difficult routing multiple channels for the rosette, etc.

I guess the flip side is that SS guitar production might tend to be higher volume and better able to use economies of scale to lower the price point. There also seems to be a larger number of independent names/luthiers in the Classical world. If the Classical maker makes his/her own rosettes from scratch, that is I'm sure time consuming. While the soundboard may have more intricate bracing, the thin-ness of the braces might leave for less variation in the fine tuning of the braces. If it is done with traditional French polish, I know that this will add time versus spraying nitro/poly.

Maybe I'm answering many of my own questions here. And not having built a Classical or Flamenco guitar yet might teach me more....but on the surface, doesn't it seem like SS guitar making might be slightly more difficult and costly on the surface or at least comparable...but the prices with Classicals seem to be higher on average.

Any thoughts otherwise on why this might be?

[Mr. Scott]

I don't think I can answer this in any authoritative way; you are right in saying that there are more large production facilities producing pro quality steel strung instruments. Off hand I can't think of any mass produced classical guitars which could be classed as "concert" grade and I don't think any professional classical guitarists play bulk-produced instruments. Even if they do play a "name" guitar, it's unlikely to be an off-the-peg job.
As to why they (nylon strung) guitars cost more is more difficult to pin down, especially for most of us as are not all luthiers and thus don't understand the intricacies of construction. Perhaps it takes a long time to become a master luthier learning the subtleties of what makes a good classical guitar. I would imagine the market for such instruments is limited which my push prices up. Maybe they take longer to build for some reason (eg few mechanical aids), or rarity of high quality materials, including the waiting time for wood to mature.
Of course, these things may effect steel-string builders too, I don't know. I look forward to other people's views.

[Ned Milburn]

A few thoughts...

With steel string performance, it is nearly ubiquitous to use amplification. Hence, the purely acoustic power and efficiency of a steel string instrument is arguably not as important as the power and efficiency of a classical guitar. Classical guitars are still very often used in unamplified performance.

Add to this the tension of the strings and standard designs of the instrument, and it is possible to argue that it is easier to get close to the target with the higher tension strings on steel string guitars. It could also be argued that nylon strung instruments tend to be more difficult to control string balance and wolf notes.

But, even if the above factors do not enter the equation at all, it is a different market. In the classical world, there is a longer tradition of paying premium prices for premium quality instruments.

Also, we have to look at manufacturing history. The steel string instrument manufacturing history is inexorably linked to factory mass production. Whereas the classical guitar was much more a hand-made tradition. This, in all its implications, will affect market prices and expectations.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by PeteD

One question that I have always had regards the relative price points on Classical versus Steel Stringed guitars. It seems that the price points of a mid to higher end Steel String tend to be much lower than a comparably classified Classical guitar. For example, it seems only a few SS producers are pricing above $10,000 USD, whereas there seem to be a decent % of Classical guitars priced near or above that point.

You're speaking in generalities. There are many mass-produced guitars under $10k - steel string and nylon string. When one gets into single-luthier hand made guitars, there are many steel string makers who charge more than $10k, just as there are nylon string makers. For those instruments, there probably isn't a huge difference in prices between steel string and nylon string.

Historically, there have been a number of factory makers of pretty good classical guitars - Yamaha, for example. Their instruments were under $10k - under $5k - and were endorsed by at least one classical guitarist. One could argue that Ramirez is a factory, distinguished from the single luthier shops.

Perhaps the question that should be asked is why is any one guitar more expensive than another, rather than steel string pricing versus nylon string pricing. I think you'd find that more insightful since both steel string and nylon string guitars can be had for as little as $200 and upwards.

[steveh]

Originally Posted by PeteD

One question that I have always had regards the relative price points on Classical versus Steel Stringed guitars. It seems that the price points of a mid to higher end Steel String tend to be much lower than a comparably classified Classical guitar.

Not sure I can agree with you here, at least not with respect to the "higher end". You don't define exactly what you mean by higher end but my personal experience is that you can get a world class nylon instrument for well under 5000 GBP (approx 6500 USD these days). I'm talking about a sole luthier built instrument from the likes of Kevin Aram, Philip Woodfield, Bert Kwakkel etc., esp if you go used (and private, not dealer).

My experience of the recent steel string world is that this won't buy you a guitar from the generic Somogyi apprentice, yet to reach 5 guitars of his own. In the "higher end" the prices bandied around for Somogyi, Traugott, Kostal, Greenfield etc. are way beyond that achieved by only a very, very few nylon luthiers.

I'm not talking about Martin/Taylor vs. Yamaha/Picado etc. If I had 5K in my pocket I'd be very confident of getting my hands on a truly fabulous nylon guitar, more so than a steel-string.

Cheers,
Steve

[PeteD]

Yep, totally agree that I am speaking very generally here...and also that it's hard to pinpoint a cutoff point for 'high end' etc.

Maybe I just have a mis-perception of what I have tended to see. If for example we use two well respected stores like DreamGuitars and Guitar Salon as an example:

About 12 out of 130 steel stringed guitars are pricing over 15k on DreamGuitars website

At GSI, about 30 guitars out of maybe 200 (?) are priced to what I believe to be over 15k (assuming all of their 'inquire' guitars are highly priced which it seems they might be)

Also if I compare the prices I tend to see elsewhere versus here on the AGF for sale, it just seems that the price points for used Classicals there are generally higher than the predominantly Steel Strings I see here.

Finally, if I think about professional musicians in both genres....lots of SS players are using $2,000ish instruments on stage whereas I doubt many Classical concert players are using instruments priced that low. It was a good point earlier on the amplification aspect/differences though.

Again, probably over-generalizing...so not trying to get into a scientific analysis here on just my idle curiosity. But for some reason when I see Classical's priced above $7500 I'm not as taken aback as when I see Steel Stringed priced above $7500.

Any rate, thanks for the thoughts here... its still a curiosity to me though. I am very interested to try my first Classical build though just to see how it compares with the 6 or so Steel Strings I have built (or attempted to build).

[riffmeister]

I think it may be that there is more competition in the larger SS market.

[LSemmens]

Originally Posted by riffmeister

I think it may be that there is more competition in the larger SS market.

I think that you have hit the nail right on the head.

It might also be the old "Why is a Stradivarius so much better than another equally as old, and equally as well made violin?" and yet, the "other" violin only commands half the money.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by PeteD

Any rate, thanks for the thoughts here... its still a curiosity to me though. I am very interested to try my first Classical build though just to see how it compares with the 6 or so Steel Strings I have built (or attempted to build).

I'd say try making one. In my experience it is more difficult to make a truly good classical guitar than it is a truly good steel string guitar. The woodworking is nearly identical; the end result is not. I'm not talking about nylon string "crossovers", but, rather, concert-hall-filling classical guitars.

Part of that is player expectation for what the instrument can do. Almost no matter what the sound characteristics are of a particular steel string guitar, there is someone who will play that guitar and say, "That's fantastic". Not so much with classical guitars.

[PeteD]

Good to know from someone who knows...thanks for that Charles.

Of course, I will not likely ever be able to produce a guitar at that level unless I go do some apprenticeships or courses with top builders. But I am very excited about doing my first Classical build. Maybe that experience will be enough to open my eyes. Now, which design to try to copy as my first...that is probably a whole can of worms in itself...

[steveh]

Originally Posted by PeteD

At GSI, about 30 guitars out of maybe 200 (?) are priced to what I believe to be over 15k (assuming all of their 'inquire' guitars are highly priced which it seems they might be)

I have to agree I find pricing at GSI etc. far more exorbitant than corresponding steel-string dealers. Coming from the UK, part of this (for once) is that I have many great nylon builders on my own doorstep. It's not unusual to see used guitars at USA dealers that are priced well above the new price for a new guitar from the same builder. I understand that dealers have to make a living, so their margin has to be in there.

This is compounded by that fact that the nylon brigade seem far more nervous about commissioning a luthier build directly. I've often heard players state that they would never dream of buying a guitar without playing it first whereas proportionally more steel string players seem happy to take a punt on a commissioned build.

There is also a fair bit of skulduggery at work. A while back I received a mail shot from a dealer offering a new Smallman for an exorbitant price. This was justified by statements that Smallman has a very long wait list and, even then, only for a privileged few concert guitarists. The reality is that when I contacted Smallman, his wait was 18 months, anyone could join, and the price of admission was approximately half of the quoted dealers price.

So, world-class nylon guitars are out there if you are prepared to buy used or commission from the luthier directly.

I'd also agree with Charles' comment above that great nylons are more difficult to "get right". These are very lightly built guitars with no inherent sustain; the opposite of steel strings. I have never, ever played a "great" nylon that came from anywhere other than a sole luthier who put in the care and attention duly required.

Cheers,
Steve

[Watt]

My suggestion would be for the OP to play some well-made concert quality classical guitars. In my experience, the differences between a good concert quality classical and a student model are far more profound than the differences between comparably priced steel string guitars.