Modelers

[AX17609]

[tl;dr alert]

With all the love around here for tube amps, I thought I'd take a stab at starting a thread dedicated to modelers and the issues that those devices present. If you have some experience to share, I'd love to hear it.

I use a Spark 40. I am strictly a bedroom guitarist and the Spark suits me perfectly. I like the fact that it interfaces with my computer via USB, and that I can play along with instructional material and backing tracks thru headphones connected directly to the unit. There are no latency issues, I can play at ear melting volume, and no one is the wiser. The Spark has 25 or so built-in amp models and a fairly large number of effects, all of which can be operated via a footswitch. What's not to like?

The challenge has been getting it to sound like a real guitar amplifier. Modelers don't behave like real amps. They have all the same controls, but those controls don't do the same thing they do on a tube amp. In fact, no less an authority than Fractal says that chasing the tone of a tube amp with a modeler is a fool's errand. They suggest that you're better off just trying to sound as good as you can without trying to copy any particular sound.

I'm forced to agree, but my experience is that you can get close, and doing so is part of the challenge. Personally, I am drawn to the British blues sound of the 60s. I like the thunderous midrange punch of a Les Paul thru an old school Marshall. The guitarists of that period didn't use a mountain of effects. It was pretty much a guitar, a cord and an amplifier. But capturing straight, uncolored amp tones in a modeler is hard.

Building tone in a modeler is very much a construction process. It's not as simple as just choosing an amp or dialing up someone's preset. In fact, I've found most of the presets that people offer up online to be wildly overcooked. They turn the gain up to 11 and go from there. I've had more luck building tones myself, step by step. Whenever I feel like I've gotten as close as possible to my desired tone, I discover some little trick that nudges me just a little bit closer. The Spark has been a good tool for learning how to do that. But it's just a student-level product.

I look forward to trying some upgrades. In particular, I'd like a unit with some cabinet simulation. But the whole rig has to satisfy my basic requirement of playing entirely thru headphones with backing tracks fed directly, preferably via USB. Unfortunately, getting clarity on this topic is difficult. Salesmen rarely know what they're talking about, and modeler manuals aren't always clear.

The Line 6 ecosystem appeals to me, because they seem to have the best user interface. It has also been recommended to me by one of our more knowledgeable members, whose opinion I always respect. I was all set to buy a Pod Go to just dip my toe in the Line 6 water until I heard about a mysterious input impedance problem that infects the unit. It's either the BIGGEST PROBLEM IN THE WORLD or nothing at all, depending on who you listen to. I can't tell.

Going up a notch, there's the HX Stomp and HX Stomp XL, which seem to be favorites among the sort of YouTube people I listen to. Everyone is selling Stomp presets. But Line 6 says that those units are intended to be used in a pedal board with other effects. I don't understand why, since they seem to have everything built in, but everyone I see with one of those units seems to have them on a pedalboard with other effects. Clearly, I'm missing something.

Then there's the Helix and Helix LT. These seem to be full-featured units with more capability than I could ever hope to use or figure out. After all, I'm just a guy playing Cream covers in his bedroom. They're also expensive, albeit they're less expensive than the cost of all the amps and effects that they attempt emulate. I have no desire at all to re-enter the buy/sell amp/effects market.

So, here I sit...kind of stalled, reading a lot of manuals. Your input is welcomed.

[Aspiring]

I'm curious where you have the quote from Fractal regarding modelling tube tone. I have Fractal products and am in their forum.

The founder has many instances of quotes around the same area along with the facts of modelling accuracy but I don't get your interpretation above.

In fact there is a thread today comparing graphs of frequency response showing the Fractal being spot on at multiple gain settings.

The caveats are:

1) amps have component tolerance which means that the amp modelled will sound spot on to Fractals copy of it not necessarily the one you have to compare to.

2) the model is of a mic'd speaker cab which means that through speakers in the same room it may sound different.

That said, I love the tones out of it. I have a couple very nice tube amps that rarely get turned on anymore. I also have a Positive Grid Spark Mini. I like it for something very portable but it's tone is not in the same range at all through the built in speaker.

I am also mostly a home player. The Fractal makes for some phenomenal recording equipment and it is the gift that keeps on giving in that the software updates keep providing new things to play with in the same equipment.

It does take some time to come up to speed on how to use it for sure.

I have both the FM3 and the Axe fx III. For home use the FM3 is plenty and achieves the same tones.

The other benefit that I have gained from using and learning Fractal gear is how to actually use a real amp much better. The learning has provided great insight into what adjusting the controls mean and how it all plays together.

[Bob Womack]

Your question adds a lot of meat to the discussion. Maybe I can help a little. The Helix-level of the Line 6 group has in its input block the ability to adjust the input impedance. You get about six choices and an "Auto" selection which causes the unit to adjust to the guitar. Because I change up guitars frequently, I typically build my presets with that selection.

I use the Helix as a studio tool, getting sounds for clients. I've built an architecture with my "special sauce" that gives me the sounds I need. Pretty early into my twenty years with modelers I decided not to chase the sounds of individual amplifiers but to create presets that sound good. I chase a sound in my head based upon favorite recordings. An interesting side effect has been that I have bought a couple of amps based up how much I liked them in the Helix! When I take my modeler out into the live market I usually get compliments on those sounds. My implementation isn't sophisticated, as in using all sorts of tricks, it is instead an emulation of the signal path I used in the '70s, with studio abilities I didn't have back then.

People talk about having problems making their guitar jump out in a mix when they are using a modeler, and that has a simple explanation: when you are alone at home, you tend to want your sound to be full with enough bass to be exciting. The truth is that a guitar with too much bass and low-mids tends to blur and recede in any mix, live or recorded. So, just don't do it. Get used to what works in a mix and make yourself satisfied with that.

Now, the architecture:
My blocks are arranged like this:
Input - volume pedal - compressor - Prince of Tone model - Amp - Parametric EQ - Cab - Echo - Reverb - Output.

The unit's input block allows me to choose the impedance and amount of a noise gate. That block is always there.
I use a volume pedal to do swells, and usually put it right after the guitar.
I use a compressor to affect the sustain of the amp. More later.
Prince of Tone - I love it for the option of either giving a relatively clean boost or adding dirt. It is a quick way to shift from crunch to lead.
Amp - Everyone has his favorite. I use two for my basic blocks - the Fender Deluxe Reverb and the Marshall Plexi Trem. The Plexi Trem is a model of the 1987T, which was a trem version of the 1987. The 1987 was the 50 watt Plexi. Most people agree that is had a smoother distortion than the 100 watt 1959 Super Lead, and that is why I like it.
Parametric EQ - I've discovered that there is just sort of a lifeless quality to the amps unless you add a little midrange, probably upper midrange, so I throw the EQ in an add a pinch.
Cabinet Block - I m not loyal to the logical choices, aka Deluxe Reverb with 1x21" speaker cab or Plexi Trem with one or other 4x12". With the cab block upgrades in version 3.5 that changed all the cabs to IRs, there has been a huge upgrade to the sound of the cabs. I spin the selection knob until I find a cab that sounds good to my ear. It is also important to adjust the mic location and distance and any roll-off to reduce boom and fizz.
Echo - I learned early on, between my guitar work and my work as a recording engineer, that echo can get mushed up when run into a gained up amp. I've still got my Echoplex EP-3, by the way. I maintain it so that it is clean enough to eat off of. I usually a clean stereo echo from the list at a pretty low level. When I was strictly on tube amps, I discovered that a pinch of Echoplex run into spring reverb made the guitar sound really full. However, I run my echo as the studios do, after the speaker.
Reverb - Same as the Echo.
Output Block - you can choose various spiggots to squirt out of. I usually choose the one that allows both 1/4" outs and USB.

Now some whys: My way of getting tones in the '70s was to use a '60s low gain, non-master-volume-control amp. I'd jack it up to perhaps 3/4s for crunch, back off at the guitar for clean, and insert an Electro Harmonix LPB-1 clean booster or eventually an MXR MicroAmp clean boost to goose the gain a bit. These days the practice is called "cooking the input tubes." Using an external boost yields a different sound from just jacking up the volume control on the amp because you aren't just using v1 to push v2 but actually pushing v1 as well. By doing this, you can keep the preamp section cleaner and use it to push the power amp into distortion. Power amp distortion sounds cleaner than the 12AX7 preamp distortion we've come to know through master volume amps. With older circuits like those from the '60s, the rectifier tube is fairly easy to overload, yielding a gentle sustain.

My presets echo that philosophy. To save processor load, I use the gain makeup on the compressor as the clean boost. I don't use the Prince of Tone that much. For crunch, I use moderate gain on the amp, like 5-6 on the Deluxe, so that I am on the edge of distortion and the overtones start to rise. I use the compressor because that pillowy phase of the power amp beginning to saturate and roll off the attack is where I like to be. You can get that without a whole lot of gain by hitting a low gain amp with a boost and a tad of compression. I have a patch that reduces the amount of gain for a purely clean sound as well.

By the way, I use most modulation effects after the amp and cab and before the delay and reverb. I've discovered that having a modulation in the chain before the amp changes the feel or response of the amp in a way that I don't like. I also discovered that most of the modulation from the seventies that I really liked was added after that amp and cab in the studio. I also discovered that David Gilmour runs his entire effect chain into a Leslie or Doppola rotating cab, and as a result, I've added a real Leslie cabinet to my home rig because it just sounds so good.

So there you go: I've given away my "secret sauce." Try it.

Bob

[Rolph]

My problem with modelers is mine. I spend all my time searching for a better sound. They are amazing, I've had Kemper, Helix, Line 6, Quilter, others. I've sold every single one of them. And, no matter what tube amps I've used with them, there is always some funky latent sound in the mix, slightly micro-seconds behind the picked note. Very unappealing to me, but the tech is amazing.

[davidd]

The POD Go is a great tool for a reasonable price. If the impedance is an issue just put a buffer in the front of your signal. For ease of use I'd just go wireless with an inexpensive set and you have solved the buffer issue. It has worked like a charm for me and I don't have cables between me and the POD Go. Or just get the POD Go Wireless which doesn't have the impedance issue.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by AX17609

...With all the love around here for tube amps, I thought I'd take a stab at starting a thread dedicated to modelers and the issues that those devices present...

Planned obsolescence: everything's cool until v2.1 comes out next week (followed by v3.0 next month), the factory no longer supports software updates on the rig you bought only last year, and no amp tech in your time zone will even consider repairing it when it starts doing strange things down the line...

Anything else has already been covered here on the Electric subforum, in this thread and others...

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Planned obsolescence: everything's cool until v2.1 comes out next week (followed by v3.0 next month), the factory no longer supports software updates on the rig you bought only last year, and no amp tech in your time zone will even consider repairing it when it starts doing strange things down the line...

Anything else has already been covered here on the Electric subforum, in this thread and others...

Well, Steve, this simply isn't true with Line 6 and Helix. I bought a used Helix in 2019 and started with versionv2.20 that the previous owner had upgraded to before he sold. Line 6 has provided free upgrades over the life of the Helix, whether you own a new or used unit. The versions all add new models and features and I've loaded them all. Version 2.80 unified the Helix universe and was a HUGE rebuild of the architecture including replacing the models with new over-sampled versions. Version 3.10 added models. Version 3.11 was the only version I've seen that was issued solely to address a bug. The next version added models and prepared for version 3.50 which rebuilt the entire cabinet system to an IR-based system and provided new replacement IR cabs for all the previous cabs and provided new cabs as well. Many say the new IR cabs have made all the aftermarket IR libraries obsolete.

Last week they debuted version 3.70 with 24 new models including new pedals and reverbs. I've never seen a guitar product that so often added value to itself.

As far as service is concerned, Line 6 have a VERY responsive service group with quick turn-around. Any known defects, such as the Helix LT treadle axle failure, have been repaired for all at no expense. Newly purchased units may be setup with an extended warranty and you may buy a program that guarantees receipt of a replacement loaner unit within 24 hour that you keep until your unit is repaired. It seems to me that Line 6 is going out of their way to be a go-to system. Their models and presets are portable between the Helix and HX systems.

Now, here is some context: Helix was designed starting in 2010. The debut was scheduled for 2011 but the economy tanked and their marketeers figured the offering price of $1500 was above the means of typical guitarists/pizza deliverers at that moment. To stay in the market, Line 6 debuted the POD HD500X in a less-expensive form. Helix finally debuted in 2015! So it is twenty-three year old design and purchasers of the initial units from 2015 (eight years ago) are still fully supported.

Pretty good, eh?

Bob

[Steve DeRosa]

I'm happy to hear Line 6 finally stepped up, Bob - some of my former jamming/bandmates and I had very different experiences with our circa-2K Flextones and Spider Valves, as per my comments above...

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

I'm happy to hear Line 6 finally stepped up, Bob - some of my former jamming/bandmates and I had very different experiences with our circa-2K Flextones and Spider Valves, as per my comments above...

You know, I watched that with the amps and had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder!

Bob

[AX17609]

Thank you all for your wonderful comments. They were exactly what I hoped I would read.

I'd like to remind everyone that while I am a certified expert on a few subjects, modelers are not one of them. On this topic I am simply a novice. What I know comes from about a year's worth of experience with an inexpensive device and from reading manuals and watching instructional videos. I have the expertise of a 7th grader writing a school paper on the economy. If I say something provocative, it's strictly by accident.

I should also clarify that when I say "modeler', I'm speaking of the sort of everything-in-a box device like a Line 6 Helix or Fractal FM-series. I'm not talking about things with speakers like a Katana or Fender Mustang. I'll save those for somebody else's thread.

A few responses:

@Aspiring
If I spent all day, I can probably recover the citation, but it came from a wiki.fractalaudio.com article that included a discussion of the Fletcher-Munson effect. The Fletcher-Munson effect refers to the fact that humans perceive sound differently at different volume levels. Tube amps, particularly those with tube rectifiers, are useful for addressing this effect because their tonal characteristics change as their volume increases. This change tends to complement the preferences of the human ear, which is why we tend to like tube amps when turned up loud.

Fractal was cautioning that this change is not copied by modelers. They warn users that the tones they generate in in their bedroom aren't going to translate well to the stage where the volume increases. It's why modelers tend to have a global EQ setting buried somewhere in their menus. You have to tune the modeler to the room.

They also caution about the so-called "amp in the room" effect. A modeler run thru a signal chain back to a speaker will not sound like an amplifier in the room. However, if you mic the amp's speaker, send the signal to a control room and compare it to a modeled version of the same amp/cab setup, they will sound so close that even experienced ears cannot tell the difference. This has been demonstrated a countless number of times in YouTube videos. My favorite version of this is when studio ace Tim Pierce had his exotic rig profiled and couldn't tell the difference between his direct signal and the modeled signal, save a slight difference in attack. An FM9 now occupies a prominent place in his amplifier cockpit.

@Bob Womack
I would find it helpful if you moved next door to me. You provided more useful counsel in 1100 words than John Nathan Cordy has in 3500 YouTube videos. I keep waiting for someone to write a "Dummies" book on modelers in the spirit of John Muir's classic VW repair manual. I nominate you to do it.

@davidd
I believe you are correct. I note with interest that when Paul Hindmarsh does one of his impressive Pod Go demonstrations, it's usually with the wireless version. Thanks for the suggestion.

@Steve DeRosa
Bob Womac has already provided the response I was going to offer. I would only offer the observation that Line 6 modeling software is beginning to approach their hardware's DSP capacity. I sense an upgrade to the Helix coming in the near future.

[KevWind]

Modeling is something that can be a bit controversial but is definitely here to stay, and arguably getting bigger sales wise.

IMO the question of "If" or "how accurately" a modeler can reproduce the sound of tube amp does not really matter in the big picture ( not saying there is anything remotely wrong with aspiring to get specific tube amp tones with a modeler,) Bobs post addresses that quite well and I think demonstrates that for his use situation it works well regardless of wether or not the specific modeled sound he is using, will null against the sound of an actual specific tube amp or not .

Overall IMO it's more that the usefulness and viability of using modeling does not have to justified by comparing it in strict amount of accuracy to an actual tube amp . It's like, who cares and why would matter , if you like the sound you're getting ?

That said while I have what is advertised to be "the best of both worlds" a hybrid tube and modeling amp REVV D20 . I have found myself I don't really use modeling aspect, and 99% of time just plug it into a cab and play it strict tube amp into cab . But that is just me

[fazool]

I've spent years chasing tone and building pedal boards and trying to get the right sound.

My friend is in a super popular local band (they draw thousands to some shows and gig 3-4 X per month). His band opened up for several A-listers and he is in the Buffalo Music Hall of Fame.
He asked me to play out with him and just use his guitar rig. Given the caliber of his band I was expecting the most equipped pedal board and a "traditional" rig. I got there and he had a Line6 modeling amp with a super simple selector pedal to change models. It was amazing to use. I asked him why he doesn't use traditional tube amp and discrete pedals.

By the way (side note) almost all effect pedals are transistor based units so the effects are all digital anyway - even when you think you are running an analog "pure" rig.

Anyway, he told me that his modeling amp easily sounds good enough. At loud rock band volumes its indistinguishable. And the ease and simplicity of operation make it worth it.

Playing it I found to be so easy and intuitive. I fell in love using it. I went home that day and sold my rig and switched and never looked back.

I program the night's set list into the amp and I flash my studio amp to match for rehearsals. Everything about it is so *EASY*. And I've gotten really good at mastering the tone. I've had guitar-people (on multiple occasions) tell me how good my guitar tone is.

If you look at totally different guitar sounds (twangy clean to distorted spacy to gritty growl). I can switch between those with one click. You can't do that "on the fly" with a discrete pedal board. You have to change effects, dial in levels, etc.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by fazool

d.

By the way (side note) almost all effect pedals are transistor based units so the effects are all digital anyway - even when you think you are running an analog "pure" rig.

. Correction - while yes most pedals are solid state based. However solid state can still be "pure analog".
Only when a pedal also uses DSP (digital signal processing) along with its analog input and output, is it considered a digital pedal.

In a simplistic catch phrase (All digital pedals are solid state , but not all solid state pedals are digital )

For example on my Pedal board I have 8 pedals, only two of which are digital (use DSP) , the other 6 are all "pure analog" pedals ... juss sayin

[FrankHudson]

I know it's a bug in human nature to fail at this, but.... I often try to approach modeling not as "Gee it's got 1,001 sounds, I need to get busy using all of them" but as "I need a couple of good sounds and another two or three occasionally." * Then working with that smallish palette of sounds to tweak them for your use. Things like the Universal Audio Woodrow etc amp-in-a-stompbox or the Fender Tonemaster amps are attempts to remove the temptation. But one can the same thing using intention with a regular 1,001 sound modeler.

Bob and some others get to some of the extrinsic advantages of modelers: repeatability, compactness, handy recording facilities. They can be a practical solution.

In my studio space I'm almost always using "real amps" -- all have glowing bottles (though one is a hybrid). But in my "Studio B" -- a little converted bedroom -- I'm using software amps all the time. Not only do I get loud amp in the room sound in silence, I can tweak the amp after playing a part.

.

*Part of the reason I have targets for those couple of sounds I'll use a lot and a couple more for sometimes is a combination of going through using some "real amps" over the years and from falling into the rabbit hole of trying out various modelers versions of "real amps." I've never owned a Fender Tweed Deluxe, Champ or Bassman -- but I fell in love with the Tweed Blues patch on the original Pod kidney bean and always have some "Tweed" choice setup in my modeling stuff.

[Bob Womack]

And then there are the starved-plate tube overdrive pedals like the BK Butler Tube Driver.



Bob