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Old 02-24-2018, 04:07 PM
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Default Acoustic Pickup comparison - Video demo K&K/Anthem/Aura VT Enhance

Acoustic Pickup Video Shootout:
LR Baggs Anthem[/LIST]Fishman Aura VT Enhance
K&K PWM (Pure Western Mini)

Guitars:
Collings OM1A w/LR Baggs Anthem
Martin OMC18E w/Fishman Aura VT Enhance
Martin D-18 Standard (2015) w/Baggs Anthem
Martin Outlaw 17 Ltd Ed w/K&K PWM

Obviously I could not compare pickups directly in an "Apples-to-Apples" scenario. But I thought it might be illimuninating and helpful to hear the natural acoustic tone and capabilities amplified. The informal and subjective shootout serves to demonstrate the natural amplified acoustic tone through Bose L1 Compact using a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ preamp on my pedalboard. No effects.



I also did a second video where I compared the Martin Outlaw to Martin D-18 Standard. The Outlaw has Mahogany back/sides, Adirondack spruce top/Adi bracing (forward shifted/Scalloped ala "Authentic") Herringbone purfling. So its like an Authentic-meets Martin GE in ways. The D-18 is Hog/Sitka with current Forward shifted/Scalloped bracing.

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Old 02-24-2018, 08:56 PM
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* Excellent videos and recordings as always Gary...you really get a good sense and feel of how these wonderful instruments all with good systems compare.

** My ranking/take:

#1 Outlaw/K&K > most "unplugged" & natural tone.

#2 D-18/Anthem > warmest & still very natural tone...for my style of playing on stage, this would be my choice.

#3 OM1A/Anthem > this combo holds it's own and sounds very nice, would be fun ja'mon this guitar!

#4 OMC-18e/VTE > very clear, yet without the body of the others.

*** Sometimes the most "unplugged" or natural tone isn't the "best" in some applications of amplified acoustic tone. The extra oomph and warmth the Anthem has can be very desirable when kickin' up the jam when rockin'. However, the K&K is hard to beat here in this demo for sounding like, "my guitar, only louder" context...the Plat-Pro is outstanding!

Thanks for doin' these Gary,

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Old 02-24-2018, 11:01 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Acoustic Pickup comparison - Video demo K&K/Anthem/Aura VT Enhance

Gary,

Excellent video as usual.

I would say from the audience’s perspective they all sound excellent. I think any audience would love to hear any one of these system played by your hands. So, really, any differentiation is nitpicking. Rather than ranking (since I think they’re all good) I’ll offer my thoughts.

Collings OM1A w/LR Baggs Anthem: When you started playing I was taken a little bit by surprise. The bottom end from that system was very powerful and way more than I would expect from an OM. I thought it sounded great. I could hear some piezo signature. It sounded very full to my ears. But, I’m not sure it sounds like an OM. Maybe it translates differently in the room.


Martin OMC18E w/Fishman Aura VT Enhance: I actually liked this one the best. I am trying to decide if it’s simply cognitive bias on my part since I just settled on this system. But, I head more definition from this system.


Martin D-18 Standard (2015) w/Baggs Anthem: Like the Collings, the Anthem in this guitar sounds very full. Since it is a dread, the bass seems to fit more naturally with the guitar. I like this tone and could listen to it all night. If I was in the room with you, I would probably be playing this guitar. Why? Because you would be holding the Outlaw with a death grip.


Martin Outlaw 17 Ltd Ed w/K&K PWM: I have listened to your videos of this guitar acoustically. It is truly a special guitar. The pickup sounds very good. But, to my ears, it needs a little more high end. My criticism of K&K is that they can sound a bit nasal and one dimensional, but I don’t hear that from this pickup signal chain. I would have expected you to have to do more EQ to get it sounding as good as it did.

Since I don’t play out as often as you and Eric, and not always with my own sound gear, my opinion of pickups includes both tone and convenience. That’s why I lean towards the active pickups that will sound good into anything.

That said, for my D-28 marquis, which is my premium guitar, I won’t install anything more than a passive K&K either. Unfortunately, my K&K doesn’t sounds as good as your K&K installation. But, I think the Roswewood back and sides might have something to with it. I need a healthy mid scoop, more treble and a bit of bass added. I think mahogany records and amplifies better.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Gary,

Excellent video as usual.

I would say from the audience’s perspective they all sound excellent. I think any audience would love to hear any one of these system played by your hands. So, really, any differentiation is nitpicking. Rather than ranking (since I think they’re all good) I’ll offer my thoughts.

Collings OM1A w/LR Baggs Anthem: When you started playing I was taken a little bit by surprise. The bottom end from that system was very powerful and way more than I would expect from an OM. I thought it sounded great. I could hear some piezo signature. It sounded very full to my ears. But, I’m not sure it sounds like an OM. Maybe it translates differently in the room.


Martin OMC18E w/Fishman Aura VT Enhance: I actually liked this one the best. I am trying to decide if it’s simply cognitive bias on my part since I just settled on this system. But, I head more definition from this system.


Martin D-18 Standard (2015) w/Baggs Anthem: Like the Collings, the Anthem in this guitar sounds very full. Since it is a dread, the bass seems to fit more naturally with the guitar. I like this tone and could listen to it all night. If I was in the room with you, I would probably be playing this guitar. Why? Because you would be holding the Outlaw with a death grip.


Martin Outlaw 17 Ltd Ed w/K&K PWM: I have listened to your videos of this guitar acoustically. It is truly a special guitar. The pickup sounds very good. But, to my ears, it needs a little more high end. My criticism of K&K is that they can sound a bit nasal and one dimensional, but I don’t hear that from this pickup signal chain. I would have expected you to have to do more EQ to get it sounding as good as it did.

Since I don’t play out as often as you and Eric, and not always with my own sound gear, my opinion of pickups includes both tone and convenience. That’s why I lean towards the active pickups that will sound good into anything.

That said, for my D-28 marquis, which is my premium guitar, I won’t install anything more than a passive K&K either. Unfortunately, my K&K doesn’t sounds as good as your K&K installation. But, I think the Roswewood back and sides might have something to with it. I need a healthy mid scoop, more treble and a bit of bass added. I think mahogany records and amplifies better.

Thanks Dave for a really comprehensive recap based on your thoughts. Very much appreciated.

Ironically, The fishman Aura VT Enhance sounded a bit lean to me and required more EQ on the Pedal board Preamp I am using (Fishman Platinum Pro EQ). The good news is that preamp is very flexible. But I struggle the most with the inherent tone of the Fishman Aura VT enhance in the OMC-18E. And i think its the pickup. I might switch to a bone saddle and see if that helps. Acoustically, the Martin OMC18E is extremely competitive with the other guitars. Something happens electronically. I dial the Enhance knob all the way to one side which I believe is ‘off’. I feel the more of the Enhance feature I dial in, the more hollow and artificial the tone becomes.

I also dial the Tone knob all the way to the right which actually scoops the midrange and boosts the bass and treble a little. I may be better served to leave the tone knob rolled more toward the middle and use the Platinum Pro EQ preamp to shape the tone. I may be fighting the ‘hyped’ EQ curve the tone wheel introduces at the extreme end of the dial where I’ve been leaving it.

I do LOVE the D-18 and Outlaw. I was surprised by how musical the Outlaw sounded with K&K and agreed with Eric, it was the most ‘unplugged’ sounding. I don’t hear the lack of treble you are mentioning. Interesting because I have high frequency hearing loss. So if anything you would think I might dial in more treble. But you know what? If I used a thinner pick, the tone would be brighter. But all things equal in the demo I made, I could always boost the treble on the Platinum Pro EQ a touch and problem solved. I error on the side of warmer than getting too bright.

Yes, the Collings Low end also surprised me ...and I actually dialed in a little more of the Anthem TruMic, so I expected it to have less bass than it exhibits. It doesn’t sound as much like an OM when Amplified. In some ways that’s awesome. In otherways I may be missing some of the detailed complexity you usually get from an OM. But I love how rich and full it is either way. So no complaints from me.

The Outlaw? My gosh that guitar is rocking my world. I used it on a gig Monday night and I was getting compliments on the tone of my guitar from ‘non-musicians’. One guy said; “Never sell that guitar.” LOL I tend to agree. It is very inspiring to play.

In terms of inspiring, the D-18 and Collings OM1A are equally inspiring to play. The Martin OMC18e is so comfortable and easy to play, but it is inspiring me the least. (But not to say I wouldn’t be thrilled with what it can do. I’ve gigged it a lot and it is very musical in its own way) But in the sea of competition, its not quite checking all the boxes. I am tempted however to try the Bone saddle. (It’s my only Cutaway acoustic right now and that offers upper fret access that I actually do use when its easily available.

Thanks again! I always enjoy your posts Dave and all you add and share on this forum.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:11 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Thanks for the demos, Gary. All the recorded samples sound very spacious in my headphones. Does the Bose help with that? Were you just recording with the video camera mic? How far from the Bose was/were your mic/mics?

I tend to like the Anthem sound best, but I have a prejudice in that direction from having run sound for so many Anthem-equipped, K&K-equipped and Fishman-equipped guitars.

I was surprised by your comment that you expected that dialing in more TruMic would lessen the bass in the Collings's amplified sound. Ideally, the amplified sound, when the blend control position is at full TruMic, should be evenly balanced from bass to treble. Its my understanding that the first thing an Anthem system user is supposed to do is to put the blend setting on full TruMic and adjust the mic level control screw for a level where the UST (which provides only signal from 250 Hz and down when the blend control is at the full mic setting) and the TruMic (which provides only signal from 250 Hz and up) are as well balanced as possible.

At the point where the Anthem system's blend control is on full TruMic, its acting just like an Anthem SL system. The difference between the Anthem SL system and the full Anthem is that you can use the blend control to blend in some full spectrum UST signal when desired. Ideally, the full spectrum UST signal should be well balanced and blending in some of that full spectrum UST signal shouldn't be causing a bassier sound.


It would be an interesting experiment to compare the full UST blend control setting with the full TruMic blend control setting. It may turn out that the full TruMic setting is actually bassier by comparison. In any event, you'll want to be sure that the mic level screw is adjusted so that the bass/treble balance is as pleasing as possible when the blend control setting is on full TruMic.

Last edited by guitaniac; 02-25-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Thanks for the demos, Gary. All the recorded samples sound very spacious in my headphones. Does the Bose help with that? Were you just recording with the video camera mic? How far from the Bose was/were your mic/mics?

I tend to like the Anthem sound best, but I have a prejudice in that direction from having run sound for so many Anthem-equipped, K&K-equipped and Fishman-equipped guitars.

I was surprised by your comment that you expected that dialing in more TruMic would lessen the bass in the Collings's amplified sound. Ideally, the amplified sound, when the blend control position is at full TruMic, should be evenly balanced from bass to treble. Its my understanding that the first thing an Anthem system user is supposed to do is to put the blend setting on full TruMic and adjust the mic level control screw for a level where the UST (which provides only signal from 250 Hz and down when the blend control is at the full mic setting) and the TruMic (which provides only signal from 250 Hz and up) are as well balanced as possible.

At the point where the Anthem system's blend control is on full TruMic, its acting just like an Anthem SL system. The difference between the Anthem SL system and the full Anthem is that you can use the blend control to blend in some full spectrum UST signal when desired. Ideally, the full spectrum UST signal should be well balanced and blending in some of that full spectrum UST signal shouldn't be causing a bassier sound.


It would be an interesting experiment to compare the full UST blend control setting with the full TruMic blend control setting. It may turn out that the full TruMic setting is actually bassier by comparison. In any event, you'll want to be sure that the mic level screw is adjusted so that the bass/treble balance is as pleasing as possible when the blend control setting is on full TruMic.
Guitaniac, Thanks for the tutorial on the Anthem TruMic/UST operation. I may not have fully understood how thu Anthem TruMic / UST blend all worked. I knew the UST was account for 250Hz and lower. So I thought the UST was really producing most of the Lows and the TruMic was delivering everything else from 250Hz and higher. So your comments were very helpful. Regardless of my accute understanding (or not), the Anthem always has delivered a very pleasing, natural amplified sound. And I always like it.

The K&K PWM through the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Preamp on my pedal board however seems to be extremely musical and perhaps sounds the most ‘unplugged’. I don’t play really loud or play acoustic in a full band. So that may make it ideal for what I do, but less ideal for others who need louder, more feedback resistance. (The Anthem is very feedback resistant which is one of the things I love about it aside from its natural tone)

The video recorder was indeed an HTC One M8 Cell phone and was recording audio from the distance you saw. (About 7 feet away) I did not use any direct mic’ing. So I dont think I was over emphasizing or embellishing what the guitars sound like through the Bose L1 Compact.

The recorded sound (to my ears) was very accurate and indicative of what the amplified sound is like in the room and at a gig.
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:05 PM
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Thanks Gary!

Good videos and very informative.

Do not ask me to choose one guitar - I like all of them, but that is little problem I have had for a while now.....

Now at heart, I am an OM boy..but I also have some Ds. So....

I am glad to hear the K&K come out so well - I am booked in at my tech to get a undersaddle ripped out of my old 93 Lowden and a K&K put in tomorrow. I hope it is as nice as yours.

Now I have been interested in Aura, Tonedexters and dual source pickups for quite a while but just have a look at this video - three way pickups!!! And a surprise feature right towards the end that you may appreciate after pressing that mute button....

(I don't have one of these and have never seen or played one.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r-3Da1GpH8



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Old 02-25-2018, 07:54 PM
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For anyone thinking of installing a K&K may I suggest you get the Ultra Tonic instead. I like it a lot.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
Thanks Gary!

Good videos and very informative.

Do not ask me to choose one guitar - I like all of them, but that is little problem I have had for a while now.....

Now at heart, I am an OM boy..but I also have some Ds. So....

I am glad to hear the K&K come out so well - I am booked in at my tech to get a undersaddle ripped out of my old 93 Lowden and a K&K put in tomorrow. I hope it is as nice as yours.

Now I have been interested in Aura, Tonedexters and dual source pickups for quite a while but just have a look at this video - three way pickups!!! And a surprise feature right towards the end that you may appreciate after pressing that mute button....

(I don't have one of these and have never seen or played one.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r-3Da1GpH8



BluesKing777.
Hi Bluesking,

I love your recordings too. You are a superb musician.

I like them all too. Yet I am currently drinking the Martin Dread Kool-aid. The Collings OM1A however is mightly sweet. I struggle the most with the Martin OMC18E, yet only in contrast to the others side-by-side. I can certainly dial in a great sound and the guitar plays like butter. ..its also my only cutaway acoustic currently. So it brings value to the table. *I am however curious what would happen if I could try a K&K in the OMC-18E. Hmmm. That is more of a fleeting thought than an action item however. The guitar works great as-is.

I watched that video of the Cole Clark system. It was mighty impressive I have to admit. But I would not cut a hole in the side of any of my guitars. So the option would be to just get a Cole Clark guitar. But that sure sounded nice!
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:39 PM
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Hi Bluesking,

I love your recordings too. You are a superb musician.

I like them all too. Yet I am currently drinking the Martin Dread Kool-aid. The Collings OM1A however is mightly sweet. I struggle the most with the Martin OMC18E, yet only in contrast to the others side-by-side. I can certainly dial in a great sound and the guitar plays like butter. ..its also my only cutaway acoustic currently. So it brings value to the table. *I am however curious what would happen if I could try a K&K in the OMC-18E. Hmmm. That is more of a fleeting thought than an action item however. The guitar works great as-is.

I watched that video of the Cole Clark system. It was mighty impressive I have to admit. But I would not cut a hole in the side of any of my guitars. So the option would be to just get a Cole Clark guitar. But ****, that sure sounded nice!


Ha! (I have a Maton SRS808 and Matons all have the hole in the side too! Worth it for the dual source pickup).

Now I put the Cole Clark video up because while the theory behind the 3 way pickup is very interesting, at the very end of the video he mentioned the kill switch for the guitar output..... after watching your video and you swapping guitars, I thought you may appreciate the idea....

I must play a Cole Clark one of these days, but they live at a dangerous, dangerous place that has all kinds of new and used acoustics including one vintage unit currently calling, calling that has me, let me say, playing my 2010 J45 as hard as I can to ignore that call.....

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Old 02-25-2018, 10:22 PM
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Ha! (I have a Maton SRS808 and Matons all have the hole in the side too! Worth it for the dual source pickup).

Now I put the Cole Clark video up because while the theory behind the 3 way pickup is very interesting, at the very end of the video he mentioned the kill switch for the guitar output..... after watching your video and you swapping guitars, I thought you may appreciate the idea....

I must play a Cole Clark one of these days, but they live at a dangerous, dangerous place that has all kinds of new and used acoustics including one vintage unit currently calling, calling that has me, let me say, playing my 2010 J45 as hard as I can to ignore that call.....

BluesKing777.
Ha! Whatever you do ...DON'T go the place with all the guitar candy! Don't do it. Must resist.

As for Kill switch, nice idea, but I have tuner mute switches on my pedal board. That does the trick. I also don't normally swap guitars. I usually play one guitar all night long, or switch before the next set starts. Then its a matter of 'set-it-and-forget-it.'

Those Matons ....I'd love to try one someday. Tommy Sure makes them sound wonderful. But he can make a piece of plywood and string sound good. LOL ..But I'm sure they are exceptional. You made some nice recordings as well if memory serves.

As cool as dual source is, I am only interested if the blending is done internally and I can use a standard 1/4" guitar cable. And the K&K is really making me smile! I always use my pedal board ..and if I went to an open mic jam, I'm tone conscious enough to ''always bring my pedal board". The reality however is that I gig so frequently that I don't usually make it to jams.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:39 PM
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I am getting the K&K in my Lowden S35 and I hope it comes up as well as your Outlaw! It goes in tomorrow but the tech is busy and last job I had done, a guitar was gone for a month. I might squeeze them, maybe pay more - I don’t want the wonderful Lowden sitting there for a month!

I have Tonedexter to help. At the heart of it I just want the Lowden to sound something like a Lowden plugged. I decided on the K because I bought a Dimarzio contact pickup and it sounds really good on the Lowden and I think the K will be a similar sound...but a bit more permanent. I have putty marks all over the place. They come off but...more work.


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Old 02-25-2018, 10:42 PM
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Really, really nice videos Gary. I think all your guitars and their pickups sound wonderful.

I'm not in the "acoustic sound only louder" camp. I appreciate and like when a plugged-in acoustic offers a combination of the best tones from their straight acoustic soundscape and from their amplification soundscape. I'd say all four of your guitars do this beautifully and in different ways...Top shelf stuff!
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Old 02-26-2018, 02:39 AM
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Ha! Whatever you do ...DON'T go the place with all the guitar candy! Don't do it.

Those Matons ....I'd love to try one someday. Tommy Sure makes them sound wonderful. But he can make a piece of plywood and string sound good. LOL ..But I'm sure they are exceptional. You made some nice recordings as well if memory serves.
Tommy E is the clue.....he has had a lot to do with pushing Maton to where they are now...a fabulous pickup system for live playing.

Now, I have heard people tell me how good the pickup was for years, let me tell you, and I have unfortunately had some real ugly experiences with Matons here over the years. But now I realise they just needed my guitar tech!

Previously, they had the piezo under every string and that sounds similar to something like the K&K when plugged into an amp. Whst Tommy E wanted was to plug direct to a PA...hence the system they came up with - undersaddle and condenser mic with controls on the side of the guitar....including sweepable mids!

So before I was playing direct to my mixer and headphones, a number of my guitars (names and their pickup withheld!) including to Auras, Tonedexter....but as an experiment, after I grabbed the Maton 808 and plugged direct and Voila! That’s it! I could not tell you what exactly it is, it is a fairly ‘brilliant’ eq...but it just feels so ‘organic’ for fingerstyle! Technical terms....

So every dopey guitarist here is playng a Maton live or a Cole Clark.... so easy. I may just take mine to the blues club and let me tell you, their PA is the test! Awful. People run in fear.


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Last edited by BluesKing777; 02-26-2018 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:46 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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For anyone thinking of installing a K&K may I suggest you get the Ultra Tonic instead. I like it a lot.
I recall that you've used ToneDexter with at least one Fishman Matrix-equipped guitar. How does the Ultra Tonic compare to that pickup, with respect to feedback rejection and ToneDexter compatability?

Beyond the ToneDexter-inclusive comparison, would the Ultra Tonic be the better sounding pickup if I wanted to leave TD at home and just use a more portable (battery operated) preamp like my Zoom A3?
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