Sound Guy Open Mic Question #2

[Vancebo]

I have been doing sound for my local Guitar Society monthly meeting for almost 2 years. I was chosen because I have the Bose model 2 that works wonderful compared to the system that was being used prior. By all accounts, I am doing a good job and the appreciation is felt.

It has become my habit as the next performer is setting up, I ask them to give me a few seconds of their loudest playing to set my level (which I learned from my previous question is providing maximum headroom). My standard question to them as I bring up the volume is "What do you not like about this sound?" Most guys say sounds good then they get started and I adjust as they go.

Here's the question: There are some that like a lot of bass. So I provide bass to their taste but it's what I consider too much. It becomes muddy and boomy like there is a tremendous amount of energy being forced through the sub. It's not the lowest tones but somewhere in the lower fundamentals. Anyone can turn up the bass knob on their amp or board and instantly know what I am talking about. At this point I am reaching for the parametric eq and during their 2 song set I am trying to dial out the boom by using a fairly narrow notch scanning frequencies between 80 and 200 hz. Sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes it does. Am I doing the right thing? Is the solution is to pretend to turn up the bass and really just leave it alone? (That's really what I want to do.)

[pieterh]

The thing is it depends what they mean by more bass. A guitar has no vibrations of its own below about 80hz which is why guitar preamps and many mixers have that as the low cut centre frequency. I say centre frequency because even a high pass/low cut filter will generally start to roll off above the set frequency, more easily seen on digital mixer displays or computer recording programs. Personally I rarely like the guitar in the subs for just that reason. If the low cut is not fixed, then try setting the frequency just at the crossover point for the subs.

If they need the bass to be prominent because of their playing style - perhaps fingerstyle with a strong bass component, like Travis picking, Chet Atkins style and so on - then as you say, experimenting with parametric eq should help to achieve a nice balance without overdoing it, often by reducing somewhere else than by increasing the bass.

The most important trick is to achieve a good front of house sound while giving the musician an on-stage sound they can work with, not the other way around. This is where good people relations is worth gold - the demands of the evening coupled with the eccentricities of the venue (acoustics, background noise etc) and the differences in different instruments, pickups and so on, will mean that it is nigh-on impossible to have absolutely everything perfect. In my world the audience is the priority at a live gig, even while I am determined to give the musicians the best possible conditions for them on stage.

Placement of the gear is also vital - the performer hearing him- or herself through the L2 may be in a position in the venue where standing waves (certain frequencies bouncing around as the room itself resonates at those frequencies) aren't affecting him or her but are added up to the sound out to you and the audience. This is particularly sensitive for bass frequencies as their long wavelengths make them more sensitive to phase cancellation and amplification (flip the polarity on ONE stereo speaker at home and you will lose stereo definition but more significantly the bass response will drop off considerably). For me this is a disadvantage of such systems that act as both monitor and main sound.

My apologies if you already know this but to summarise: determine your system's crossover point and try to avoid too much of the guitar in the sub's area; tactfully discuss with the musicians what the priorities are, they may well be ok with less bass if they understand it sounds great to the audience; experiment a little with speaker placement if possible.

[MikeBmusic]

Some part of these guys asking for 'more bass' is that due to where you have the L2 set up, they may just not be feeling/hearing it as much. You're the sound guy, you can hear it better than they can, and use players sitting out in the audience area to affirm that your settings are good.
Does the L2 have a hi-pass (lo-cut) filter? You might consider a DI or preamp pedal that does (I use a Radial PZ Pre and leave the 80Hz lo-cut on all the time, even when a bass plugs in).

[Andy Howell]

Stick to our guns. too much bass is horrible for the audience!

[Bobby1note]

Off-hand, I don't think parametric-EQ is the right tool for this job. I'd probably lean toward a decent shelving EQ, depending on where the corner-frequency is located. 125Hz is probably a good point,,,,while 250 Hz would be too extreme.(seriously affects vocals)

Without a dedicated stage-monitor, you're basically stuck at choosing which area gets sound-priority,,, the stage,,,, or FOH,,,, and FOH should win every time.

[Vancebo]

I want to clarify my question. I want to give them more bass if their playing style warrants it i.e. "Fingerstyle" but I want to clear up the mud and tighten up the bass. Which is the reason I am playing with the parametric eq. Is this the right choice?

The problem with the T1 presets is that it only allows you one preset at a time. A Highpass Filter or a preset like "Acoustic with Piezo". It does sound to me that a high pass filter may be included in the "acoustic with piezo" setting. No proof other than what my ear tells me.

[Bob-I]

Mix from what you hear in the audience and tell them they sound great out front.

[ljguitar]

Hi Vancebo...

You are much more inquisitive in your live mixing setups than I am.

Unless an artist doesn't trust my mixing abilities, or has a specific sound in mind, I set monitors for them and the house for the house. If there are not monitors, I set the house speakers for everybody (including the artist).

When I'm the artist…not the tech…
I usually have my own vocal mic, or if the mic is 'typical' (SM-58 or that style), I know the setting which are average for my vocal and will ask the tech to set it to the average I like, and then ask them to mix my guitar hotter than my vocals and give them a quick example of loudest play.

I find after I've played/sang once, they remember me, and are accommodating. I rarely ask them to change the house unless they are trying to turn my Olson Dreadnought into a bass guitar. I think bass should be heard, not felt.

Since you are providing the service running the PA for your Society, I'd make it as little work as possible, and still have it sound nice.

I don't see parametric EQ (or ⅓ octave) as THE answer for all ills. In fact I try to do as little EQ as I can get away with and let people adjust. Listeners are very flexible and forgiving.

[Bobby1note]

Originally Posted by Vancebo

I want to clarify my question. I want to give them more bass if their playing style warrants it i.e. "Fingerstyle" but I want to clear up the mud and tighten up the bass. Which is the reason I am playing with the parametric eq. Is this the right choice?

The problem with the T1 presets is that it only allows you one preset at a time. A Highpass Filter or a preset like "Acoustic with Piezo". It does sound to me that a high pass filter may be included in the "acoustic with piezo" setting. No proof other than what my ear tells me.

This Parametric EQ you're referring to, is it a multi-band outboard unit? Or, are you stuck with using a single sweepable frequency that's incorporated into your Bose's control-unit?

Also, are you using a D.I. on some of those guitars?

How far is your Bose's control-unit from the instrument?

Regarding some musicians' "taste" regarding "their sound",,,, ya just gotta wonder what the heck they're thinking sometimes. You'll never make a crappy-sounding guitar and pick-up sound great,,,, you can only "support" or refine what's already there.

[Andy Howell]

Where possible I would always run my guitar signal through my own preamp before sending it to the T1 which would be flat. The T1 would just be adding a bit of reverb or delay then.

[Vancebo]

As a general rule, I am running the T1 set to the Acoustic with Piezo Preset. That changes when someone brings their (insert make/model) electric, hollow body jazz guitar or acoustic with magnetic. I go to the closest preset I can find. There are many who go through the mic Sure Beta 87a and do not plug in. All my adjustments are within 3 db from their for most people really. It's an exception to stray farther than that. ...but it does happen! Sometimes I just give up and mix in the 87a that's sitting right there in front of them anyway. It's a couple of guys that want big heavy bass that I seem to not accommodate. As some of you said, who am I trying to serve? The audience!

I think I should of been a sound guy. I find myself always tinkering. I am now learning how to operate our new digital soundboard at church. I am noticing how it has effectively taken away the "art" of mixing. Now we are going to be able to effectively train a new generation of sound guys to just push buttons and not train their ears. In a smaller church, I am okay with that because it's rare to get that that person with the right combination of skillsets. We are blessed to have 2 very effective sound guys the others are just fill ins. Anyway, I am rambling. I am enjoying the experience.

[pieterh]

I don't think digital desks take away the art of mixing. I regularly use a Yamaha M7CL in my day job and an 01v96 for the smaller gigs and for my own stuff. I have used Allen & Heath, DiGiCo, Mackie and Soundcraft and am looking forward to a workshop in 3 weeks time with the Venue S3L hosted by experienced sound engineers and folks from Avid.

Presets etc on a digital desk are just another tool - eq presets can give an idea of what to be aiming for but your ears will still be the judge (and besides, eq presets never or at least rarely have the low cut active which is essential for many instruments if you ask me), whole band presets (where front of house and monitors are pre-set) are useful in the context of a complex show but still need tweaking during the live performances. The fact that digital mixing desks have the facility to save so many parameters does not take away the artistry: on analog desks I would regularly start by doing an initial setup from which I could then prepare the show or band. With digital technology I have usually already done a basic preset (or several) where I know which effects I have, how the mixer channels are routed, which inputs I am using (we have 8 channels of AES coming into the M7 for example but all the analog inputs are still available if we need those 8 channels analog instead), general eq settings for front of house and monitors based on our venue, and so on. In my experience this frees me up to be more artistic, not less, as what would previously have taken time to set up is already there by recalling a preset. I still need to know how to use and exploit effects for example even if they are built into the mixer's software.

And as you say - it's also a reassuring way of having a set up at your fingertips for when someone less experienced is running things!

[Bobby1note]

I agree with pietrh, digital (usually) excels at raw processing power, the ability to save "scenes", and obviously, outboard gear reduction. The onus is still on the board engineer to provide a good mix.

That said, garbage in is garbage out. No mixer is going to give you what's not there to start with. You can dress it up or tone it down a bit, but you simply can't "create" what's not there.