Question on Chord Scale and Modes

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

Can somebody confirm my understanding of the following is correct?:

G Major Chord Scale: Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj
A Dorian Chord Scale: Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj, Amin?

I understand WRT individual notes that A Dorian and G major have the same notes, but get confused as to whether the chord scale has the same chord structures as I indicated above (just ordered differently)....

OR, would there be a chord structure different from the relative Major Chord Scale at each root note, such as Amin, Bmaj, Cmin, etc... If that is the case, what is a concise logic that explains the concept? Thanks!

Micah

[stanron]

The chords look OK. Don't know what WRT means and don't bother with chord scales myself either, but it's not illegal.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

Can somebody confirm my understanding of the following is correct?:

G Major Chord Scale: Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj
A Dorian Chord Scale: Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj, Amin?

I understand WRT individual notes that A Dorian and G major have the same notes, but get confused as to whether the chord scale has the same chord structures as I indicated above (just ordered differently)....

Well, it's the same scale, same notes, and the chords are all made from those notes (no others), using the same principle (R-3-5 triads). So yes, it's all the same chords.

BTW, IMO, "chord scale" is the wrong term. That phrase is normally used as a jazz term with a different meaning (a scale linked with a single chord, rather than a set of chords linked with a scale).

What you have is a "harmonised scale", which is giving you all the chords "diatonic to" the key of G major (or indeed to A dorian or any other mode of those notes).

You might also need to bear in mind that modes work differently from keys (although that may be beyond where you're at right now).
So, in practice, a tune in G major may well use all those chords, or most of them anyway.
A tune in A dorian will probably only use two, three at most, and sometimes just one (Am). (Use all the chords, and the tune will probably just sound like it's in G major after all, because that's the strongest tonal focus for that set of notes.)

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, it's the same scale, same notes, and the chords are all made from those notes (no others), using the same principle (R-3-5 triads). So yes, it's all the same chords.

BTW, IMO, "chord scale" is the wrong term. That phrase is normally used as a jazz term with a different meaning (a scale linked with a single chord, rather than a set of chords linked with a scale).

What you have is a "harmonised scale", which is giving you all the chords "diatonic to" the key of G major (or indeed to A dorian or any other mode of those notes).

You might also need to bear in mind that modes work differently from keys (although that may be beyond where you're at right now).
So, in practice, a tune in G major may well use all those chords, or most of them anyway.
A tune in A dorian will probably only use two, three at most, and sometimes just one (Am). (Use all the chords, and the tune will probably just sound like it's in G major after all, because that's the strongest tonal focus for that set of notes.)

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I am attempting to affirm my understanding of chords harmonizing to a key defined by 7 notes. The chord or note of resolution would give the possible variance in "feel" of the notes that make up G major, right? meaning that if a chord progression resolves to the A minor, it will have a Dorian feel made up of the same G Major notes.... this is my best understanding:

If you have an a progression in the key of A: A, Bmin, C#min, D, E. If you play these each by themselves, sounds like a scale. If you drone the A the whole time, has an Ionian feel. If instead you droned a B behind that scale, it would have a Dorian feel, because B is the second interval in the home key that the chords are layered against. If you droned against a F#, it would have an Aeolian feel because F# is the 6th interval of the chord scale key.

Right?

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

Can somebody confirm my understanding of the following is correct?:

G Major Chord Scale: Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj
A Dorian Chord Scale: Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, Dmaj, Emin, F#dim, Gmaj, Amin?

I understand WRT individual notes that A Dorian and G major have the same notes, but get confused as to whether the chord scale has the same chord structures as I indicated above (just ordered differently)....

Yup. You got it. Same notes, same chords...

I don't know if you'll find this interesting or helpful, but a few years ago I put up a youtube lesson as sort of a very easy intro into how I personally think about modes for generating single note lines. https://youtu.be/fU9ygo81vOc

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I am attempting to affirm my understanding of chords harmonizing to a key defined by 7 notes. The chord or note of resolution would give the possible variance in "feel" of the notes that make up G major, right? meaning that if a chord progression resolves to the A minor, it will have a Dorian feel made up of the same G Major notes....

Right

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

If you have an a progression in the key of A: A, Bmin, C#min, D, E. If you play these each by themselves, sounds like a scale. If you drone the A the whole time, has an Ionian feel. If instead you droned a B behind that scale, it would have a Dorian feel, because B is the second interval in the home key that the chords are layered against. If you droned against a F#, it would have an Aeolian feel because F# is the 6th interval of the chord scale key.

Right?

Pretty much, yes.
The issue is that the major key is such a strong sound - we're so familiar with it - that to establish a mode other than ionian means restricting the use of chords, and focussing much more on the chord you want as your tonal centre.

This is really why the minor key incorporates the alterations known as harmonic and melodic minor: because if we stuck to aeolian mode (natural minor) the effect of all the chords would tend to draw the ear to the relative major. We need something to lead the ear to the minor tonic, hence the raising of the 7th degree when going up to the tonic.
So in key of Am, we use an E major chord to give us that G#-A move that makes A "sound like home". (In a sense, the E chord is borrowed from A major, to borrow the "ionian" effect.)

Without that, we'd need to focus much more on Am to make us hear that as home.

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

[/QUOTE]
This is really why the minor key incorporates the alterations known as harmonic and melodic minor: because if we stuck to aeolian mode (natural minor) the effect of all the chords would tend to draw the ear to the relative major. We need something to lead the ear to the minor tonic, hence the raising of the 7th degree when going up to the tonic.
So in key of Am, we use an E major chord to give us that G#-A move that makes A "sound like home". (In a sense, the E chord is borrowed from A major, to borrow the "ionian" effect.)

Without that, we'd need to focus much more on Am to make us hear that as home.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by raising of the 7th degree....? And are you saying that rather than use an Eminor Chord per the Aeolian mode, by inserting the Emajor chord in its place you get the G# in the Emajor's third, which is a half step away from the tonal center A? And that will naturally be so close to resolving that it has a more dramatic effect of establishing A minor?

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Yup. You got it. Same notes, same chords...

I don't know if you'll find this interesting or helpful, but a few years ago I put up a youtube lesson as sort of a very easy intro into how I personally think about modes for generating single note lines. https://youtu.be/fU9ygo81vOc

great video! thanks. The chord of the moment is a new concept to me. But I can't walk and chew bubble gum, we will have to practice!

[Pualee]

I have been delving into this, trying to understand it as well. While your understanding of the modal notes is correct, the harmonies will not work out so well if you use the standard chords you listed (it will sound like an major/minor song without the necessary resolution).

I cannot give you a concise answer, as it is on the limit of my understanding right now. But look into some songs using the modes you like, and you will see they don't use the major/minor triads so much. You will see different chord progressions.

Last time I tried to pigeon hole everything in a simple way, it just didn't work out. Each mode (other than the huge similarities between Ionian and Aeolian), seem to create a different world as far as the harmonies go. Power chords become a lot more useful and some of the quads will come in to play over the triads you list.

[jseth]

I am surprised that none of the "learned ones" caught this in your original post...

In the Gmaj diatonic chord scale, the V chord is a DOMINANT 7th chord, NOT a major chord... and, the VIIthe degree of the major chord scale is NOT a diminished chord, but a HALF diminished or min7flat5 chord... in G, that would be F#min7flat5...

From a Jazz Theory perspective, each of those chords in the major chord scale has certain "tensions" or extra notes that can be added as you please... they do NOT have to be present to get the "feel" of that chord scale, but they are implied.

Gmaj7 Amin7 Bmin7 Cmaj7#11 Ddom7 Emin7 F#min7 flat 5 (>Gmaj7)

There are "other" notes that can work with these chords, as well, so long as they are found within the NOTES of the Gmaj scale.

Hope this helps...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

What do you mean by raising of the 7th degree....?

7th note in the minor scale.

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

And are you saying that rather than use an Eminor Chord per the Aeolian mode, by inserting the Emajor chord in its place you get the G# in the Emajor's third, which is a half step away from the tonal center A? And that will naturally be so close to resolving that it has a more dramatic effect of establishing A minor?

Exactly!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by jseth

I am surprised that none of the "learned ones" caught this in your original post...

In the Gmaj diatonic chord scale, the V chord is a DOMINANT 7th chord, NOT a major chord... and, the VIIthe degree of the major chord scale is NOT a diminished chord, but a HALF diminished or min7flat5 chord... in G, that would be F#min7flat5...

He was only listing triads, so the chords were all correct. The V chord is major.

Still, it is worth pointing out that the word "maj" is superfluous. That applies to I and IV too.
In jazz, "maj" tends to be used to describe the 7th of a chord, so jazz readers might just find "Dmaj" confusing and assume it's shorthand for "Dmaj7" - but I think context here makes it clear that wasn't the case.

G Am Bm C D Em F#dim - would be sufficient to describe the triads.

Add 7ths and you're correct; although - again - "Ddom7" is not necessary and "D7" is enough.

"Dmaj"= D F# A ("D" is enough)
"D7" = D F# A C = V in G major
"Dmaj7" = D F# A C#= I in D major, or IV in A major.

[D. Shelton]

Okay, while this is still up, I want to ask a couple of things, starting with :

Might someone point me in the direction of a good online source of educational material in this area ? Maybe dvd's, maybe a book; I don't want internet videos though (slow connection)

The guitar mechanics of all this makes sense, and I know enough about scale and chord building , from lots of time with CAGED forms . Mostly the Diatonic, but a couple years ago I mapped out forms for something or other that I wrote down as A Harmonic Minor . Notes of ABCDEFG#A . Got a fun new set of chords to play with , etc, but I ran into issues with what I was calling things (scale degrees , extended chords) . I also want top play with melodic minor .

I don't want to bother people here with teaching me the next stages, so
I figured I should ask about other resources.

Thanks,
DS

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Okay, while this is still up, I want to ask a couple of things, starting with :

Might someone point me in the direction of a good online source of educational material in this area ? Maybe dvd's, maybe a book; I don't want internet videos though (slow connection)

The guitar mechanics of all this makes sense, and I know enough about scale and chord building , from lots of time with CAGED forms . Mostly the Diatonic, but a couple years ago I mapped out forms for something or other that I wrote down as A Harmonic Minor . Notes of ABCDEFG#A . Got a fun new set of chords to play with , etc, but I ran into issues with what I was calling things (scale degrees , extended chords) . I also want top play with melodic minor .

I don't want to bother people here with teaching me the next stages, so
I figured I should ask about other resources.

Thanks,
DS

Best online theory source I know is http://www.musictheory.net/
It's not aimed specifically at guitarists, unfortunately, but it's well organised, if you go through it in order from the beginning.
For theory books - with guitar in mind - I'd go for http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063406651X/

These may not answer questions on chord-scale theory, or modes, but you need a good grounding in traditional key theory anyway before you tackle modes.

BTW, the only chords commonly taken from A harmonic minor are the V (E7(b9)) and vii (G#dim7); they're both used to resolve to Am (which is why it's called "harmonic minor" - it improves the function of the V-i cadence). In the A minor key, the rest come from natural minor; although in jazz the tonic is often harmonised with A melodic minor extensions. (Am6, Am69, Am(maj7).)
It's possible, of course, to harmonise other chords from melodic minor - lots of jazz voicings there.

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Best online theory source I know is http://www.musictheory.net/
It's not aimed specifically at guitarists, unfortunately, but it's well organised, if you go through it in order from the beginning.
For theory books - with guitar in mind - I'd go for http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063406651X/

These may not answer questions on chord-scale theory, or modes, but you need a good grounding in traditional key theory anyway before you tackle modes.

BTW, the only chords commonly taken from A harmonic minor are the V (E7(b9)) and vii (G#dim7); they're both used to resolve to Am (which is why it's called "harmonic minor" - it improves the function of the V-i cadence). In the A minor key, the rest come from natural minor; although in jazz the tonic is often harmonised with A melodic minor extensions. (Am6, Am69, Am(maj7).)
It's possible, of course, to harmonise other chords from melodic minor - lots of jazz voicings there.

It wasn't the chords themselves that were interesting compared to what I'd been working with , but the progressions (and melody) afforded by the 'different' tonality of harm. minor. Like the relationship of the EV and FVI , just a half step apart , both as major chords . It wasn't so much "oh, I can do that?" as it was "and here's all the other interesting new relationships (opportunities for progressions) to go along with " .

But thanks, I will look into that , and I've always known I needed key (pun included) education . It just never happened ....but probably should before I croak