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  #46  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:49 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Warning: Your eyes may glaze over with this reply. Read at your own risk.

Before we talk about Taylors specifically, it may be important to recognize the many factors that give a guitar it's "gestalt" or tonal personality. There are many factors involved that apply to all guitars.

The fundamental tone is something we're all familiar with. Some players prefer a guitar that has less brightness because a warmer guitar often blends better with voices and stays out of the way of other instruments' sound space. And we know that some woods respond differently to different frequencies which contribute greatly to a guitars timbre. But there is more to it.

Every note played on guitar has a fundamental note, but also has overtones, usually in the harmonic series. But the one thing that we don't discuss is: ARE THE OVERTONES IN TUNE WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL??? I say not all the time and in varying degrees. It takes some focus, great ears and perhaps a bit of training to listen for and identify the "congruity" of intonation of the overtones that a guitar produces. I contend that overtones in some Martins may be just a bit flat from their fundamentals. If you listen to some newer models, the HD 28 and the new D28 they are going to give the perception of being brighter, but to my ear in actuality it's the overtones that are more in tune than perhaps in other or previous renditions. And because of that, there is a residual effect for tMartins with similar designs: Resultant harmonics.

Resultant harmonics occur when two pitches create sympathetic vibrations which create addition overtones, makes the sound bigger. To compare the results of the creation of resultant harmonics, all you have to do is compare a top flight professional orchestral brass section compared to a high level amateur brass section playing the same piece. [You could witness the same thing with a string section, just not as dramatic.] The professional orchestra will sound bigger and louder, yet the effort and sheer volume of each player isn't so much more than its counterpart. It is the RESULT of the overtones playing off of each other, creating additional sympathetic tones, not unlike when your garbage can rattles when you play certain pitches loud enough to excite the vibrating surfaces.

Getting back to guitars, as they are designed as equal tempered instruments, left without adjustment, there will be some chords or intervals that will not ring with the most vibrancy. A common interval is the major 3rd where one must lower the 3rd to get the interval to ring... in other words... produce the most amount of resultant harmonics. Modified tuning such as the James Taylor or "sweetened" tunings are designed to address some tuning shortcomings with calculated compromises. Some guitars really respond to sweetened tunings in a big way, others not as much.

So getting back to the question about Taylor and the accusation of "over-brightness". I contend that what Taylor has done in most of their designs has somehow addressed the issue of overtones being more harmonically in line with the fundamental notes. I think this occurs in all their guitars, but as their models become more expensive the wood combinations they use then compliment the designs providing more full robust sounds with the combination of design and materials. Thus you have a "brightness" that is readily heard in lower models, but in the upper models becomes more of a "shimmer", resulting from those resultant harmonics being more readily produced. And let's not forget about balance of both tone and volume of all the strings. To my ear the best guitars are well balanced across the instrument, but some folks hear it different and don't agree with my preference.

The truth is, that in quality guitars I believe that 90% of the perception of quality is EXPECTATION. We have a sound in our head that we want to hear, perhaps to produce or reproduce a style of music and when a guitar meets our expectation we are satisfied. We know that Martins will sound different than Taylors which typically sound different than a traditional Gibson none of which sound like Waterloos (well... maybe the really old ones might).

And that's my take on the whole thing. Sorry if I've used up too much bandwidth. JMO. Beauty is in the eye...
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Last edited by vindibona1; 07-26-2017 at 03:55 PM.
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  #47  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
...The truth is, that in quality guitars I believe that 90% of the perception of quality is EXPECTATION. We have a sound in our head that we want to hear, perhaps to produce or reproduce a style of music and when a guitar meets our expectation we are satisfied...
Vin, you definitely lost me but I got to the above paragraph and agree although maybe not the exact percentage. In my mind, the only way around hearing a tone that you anticipate is a blind tone test on instruments of similar size and the same strings....
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  #48  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:07 PM
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They're not. It's a meme, much like a lot of other silly things people say about guitars.
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  #49  
Old 07-26-2017, 04:42 PM
CaineIsCarter CaineIsCarter is offline
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I've bought two Taylors in the last couple of weeks; a 322ce 12 fret, which is by no means bright, and a 114.

The 114 I chose over 2/3/4xx models, specifically because it has what I would characterise as a dry, articulate sound with excellent separation. It's a spartan, unembellished instrument, with an almost imperceptible layer of satin finish, and I wonder if this is why it sounds the way it does.

The 322 has a much more complex, chimey midrange sound. I'm still in the honeymoon period for both, but they are both great guitars, offering a broad palette.

My old Squier Telecaster was bright. These two are not.
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Old 07-26-2017, 05:22 PM
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Just put a set of John Pearse SILKs on my Taylor 414, and bright is the last word I'd use to describe its tone....
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  #51  
Old 07-26-2017, 05:33 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Maybe it is all of that famous SoCal sunshine down there near San Diego that makes them sound bright?

Tone is so hard to describe. Rather than bright (treble heavy) or dark (overly bassy) it might be better to think in terms of classic bass-emphasized Martin tone versus modern articulate tone which I think of as "flat EQ". I have several different Taylor guitars in varying body sizes (mostly GA size) and varying wood combinations, ranging from a 114ce to a 615ce and two that are koa / spruce and all-koa. Each gives me a different kind of tone, which is why I bought them.
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  #52  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:05 PM
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Why are Taylors so bright??

Because that's the way we like it, we like it, uh-huh, uh-huh.
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  #53  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:06 PM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Originally Posted by Hurricane Bob View Post
Why are Taylors so bright?
Because it's just another accepted narrative, spun usually by people not having played them. I hate bright sounding guitars and have been wanting a x12 model ever since trying my friends 312 in his studio.

The only actually bright sounding Taylor to date that I have played was a 612 I checked out in Tokyo a couple years ago.

Just say no to bright guitars, and urban legends too.
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  #54  
Old 07-26-2017, 06:14 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Originally Posted by RP View Post
Vin, you definitely lost me but I got to the above paragraph and agree although maybe not the exact percentage. In my mind, the only way around hearing a tone that you anticipate is a blind tone test on instruments of similar size and the same strings....
Sorry I lost you. It's complicated and I've spent years studying this stuff, mostly with brass instruments.

To break it down more simply:1) Overtones aren't always exactly in tune with the fundamental but the more they are the more resonant everything will sound- but overtones are ALWAYS higher than the fundamental they serve. 2) Sympathetic vibrations are formed creating additional overtones depending on frequencies (resultant harmonics). 3) Different woods and constructions/designs favor some tones/frequencies over others (and also is partially involved with sustain).

Hope that clears it up a bit.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:02 PM
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My Big Baby is bright, almost mandolin type of sound to it. We have it set to a Nick Drake tuning with medium strings and it sounds really good that way. My 314ce is not bright at all to me. It has quite a lot of thumpiness to it. Maybe it's my particular one but definitely would not classify it as bright.
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  #56  
Old 07-26-2017, 08:14 PM
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I went to GC today and strummed a HD-28 and a Taylor 814. Both times I said "Wow."
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  #57  
Old 07-26-2017, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Bob View Post
Its been mentioned a few times on this forum and my 110 definitely is on the bright side. Not that I mind, it cuts through nicely when playing solos with my acoustic band. Is it the 3 bolt on neck screws? Design?
In my opinion, the top wood, body depth, body wood, combined with the strings AND the place where it is stored makes the sound. I also noticed the sound changes with different seasons (to a small extent).

Every spruce top Taylor I play is bright, but the maple body ones are definitely brighter and sparklier than the mahogany body ones.

I own 2 koa Taylors and adore that odd midrange tone they have. Husband has the torrified spruce over maple (the re-voiced one) and THAT is one sparkly-with-oomph guitar.

You seem happy with your 110 and that is all that matters
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  #58  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:09 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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They are bright due to the bracing (and somewhat the neck join).

They primarily got a reputation for being bright, thin, trebbely, and tinny because for several decades Taylor insisted on shipping them with those horrible sounding Elixir 80/20s.

The Taylors in the stores suddenly started sounding better last year when they stared shipping with Phosphor Bronze instead. The new bracing patterns that Andy Powers introduced have also made them sound less bright and more balanced.

Out of five 12-strings I own my Taylor is still the brightest though.
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  #59  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:34 PM
Guitarplayer_PR Guitarplayer_PR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Bob View Post
Its been mentioned a few times on this forum and my 110 definitely is on the bright side. Not that I mind, it cuts through nicely when playing solos with my acoustic band. Is it the 3 bolt on neck screws? Design?
Compared to Martin (considered the quintessential acoustic guitar tone for many years), yes, they are bright; but it's a matter of its construction. They are voiced sound the way they sound and many people love that tone, including me.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:57 PM
Nama Ensou Nama Ensou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
They are bright due to the bracing (and somewhat the neck join).

They primarily got a reputation for being bright, thin, trebly, and tinny because for several decades Taylor insisted on shipping them with those horrible sounding Elixir 80/20s.

The Taylors in the stores suddenly started sounding better last year when they stared shipping with Phosphor Bronze instead. The new bracing patterns that Andy Powers introduced have also made them sound less bright and more balanced.
Don't know about anyone else, but this is my favorite post so far. Educated, well reasoned, and thence, educational too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR View Post
Compared to Martin (considered the quintessential acoustic guitar tone for many years), yes, they are bright; but it's a matter of its construction. They are voiced sound the way they sound and many people love that tone, including me.
This makes a lot of sense too, but to tell the truth, that one 612 I played was the only one that seemed singularly bright sounding to me.
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