Question about binding on Martin

[Tlon]

Hi,
I have a question about the top binding on a Martin 000-28 custom shop guitar. In most areas, the place where the binding meets the wood on the sides (and endpiece) of the guitar are perfectly smooth. I can't feel any transition. In a few spots, though, I can feel an edge on the binding. It seems otherwise completely solid and stable. Is this normal to not have the binding be perfectly smooth all around? Is this a potentially an indication of a more serious problem down the road or just a workmanship issue? If so, is this a difficult/impossible fix?

Thanks for any help.

[pickitluther]

Totally normal !

[mirwa]

Martins are also more susceptible to having the binding lift away from the body.

Keep an eye on it.

This is a link on repairing binding on martins. I would recommend if it does lift to pay someone to do the job, as things can go wrong and I have included examples in my walk through.

http://www.mirwa.com.au/HTS_Reglue_Loose_Binding.html

Steve

[Quickstep192]

If you are the original owner and you registered the warranty, I would recommend bringing it to their attention and keeping an eye on it. That would help establish a warranty claim later if you need it if the situation gets worse.

[Tlon]

Thank you all.

I am not the original owner. I just bought it used and I'm trying to decide if this is an issue I should be concerned about and if I should return it (I have until tomorrow to decide).

[mirwa]

Possibly bring it to their attention.

Maybe discuss with them options should it lift.

Worst case scenario, to give you a cost idea.... I charge between 60-200 dollars, dependant on how much binding needs to be re-attached, how loose it is, how much finish work post repair will be needed.

Martin Warranty repairs that I do, usually fall in the lower part of this price range

Steve

[Tlon]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Possibly bring it to their attention.

Maybe discuss with them options should it lift.

Worst case scenario, to give you a cost idea.... I charge between 60-200 dollars, dependant on how much binding needs to be re-attached, how loose it is, how much finish work post repair will be needed.

Martin Warranty repairs that I do, usually fall in the lower part of this price range

Steve

Thanks! That's incredibly helpful. I've written to the seller with a couple of options.

[pickitluther]

Wood and plastic move, shrink and expand differently from each other. I really doubt your binding is coming loose.

Originally Posted by pickitluther

Wood and plastic move, shrink and expand differently from each other. I really doubt your binding is coming loose.

I have observed the same. I have also glued a fair amount of loose binding without any need for touchup (usually on older guitars) and none that I can recall has come loose again.

[Tlon]

Assuming it's not coming loose, which seems right, is it possible for someone who knows what they are doing to "sand" or shave the binding to line it up better? The areas I'm referring to overlap enough to make them deep enough to grab with a fingernail. There are other areas that I can tell there is a transition when I rub my finger over them (slight sharpness or roughness) but these two areas between the upper and lower bouts are a bit more defined.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Tlon

Assuming it's not coming loose, which seems right, is it possible for someone who knows what they are doing to "sand" or shave the binding to line it up better?

Yes it is very possible.

Originally Posted by Tlon

There are other areas that I can tell there is a transition when I rub my finger over them (slight sharpness or roughness) but these two areas between the upper and lower bouts are a bit more defined.

That is very consistent with binding coming loose.

Back to basics, the best thing is with an educated mind you can work the issue out for yourself, we all here are guesstimating your problem via a description, realistically you can work what out what the problem is

Binding a Guitar

first we cut a channel for the binding to go into,
the binding is glued into the channel,
the binding is scraped or sanded flush with the body
the body is sealed and painted, any stain or coloured paint is scraped of the binding edges with a sharp blade
the guitar is coated in 4-6 coats of clear lacquer over the binding as well
the guitar is allowed to gas off
the guitar is buffed

The guitar goes to the store and is ready for sale

That is how the guitar is manufactured and presented to you a member of the public for sale

Now binding (martin) is plastic, your guitar is wood, they both expand and contract at different rates (miniscule amount) this expansion and contraction can work the glue bond loose or simply stretch that glue bond.

Steve

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I have observed the same. I have also glued a fair amount of loose binding without any need for touchup (usually on older guitars) and none that I can recall has come loose again.

I always feel the need to question said statements if I find something different.

Since I am a warranty repair agent for Martin Guitars here in Australia, I possibly see a greater range than you may.

Never have I ever glued a piece of binding back on and found it to be perfect, with no need for follow up shaping scraping or even painting let alone rectifying any issues that may arise from using a glue that did not like the finish.

We all repair to different standards and we all see different volumes of work.

I have provided a link showing my work, attached to that link is another 70 walk throws showing my work.

Here is a link direct showing some of my work

http://www.mirwa.com.au/How_to_Series.html

I average maybe 60 guitars a year for binding issues of some form or other.

Now my question.

If you have a section of loose binding and you reglue it back on by your process, how are you managing to clean the understucture of the binding and the routed recess to such a perfect standard that you can glue the binding back on with no small bumps or crevices, in the end result.

After gluing the binding back on, what are you doing with the void that exists between the finish and the binding, this void is normally filled with laquer

These are just some of my questions that peek my interest from never having to touch up

Steve

Originally Posted by mirwa

Now my question.

If you have a section of loose binding and you reglue it back on by your process, how are you managing to clean the understucture of the binding and the routed recess to such a perfect standard that you can glue the binding back on with no small bumps or crevices, in the end result.

After gluing the binding back on, what are you doing with the void that exists between the finish and the binding, this void is normally filled with laquer

These are just some of my questions that peek my interest from never having to touch up.

Different circumstances I think. You're often (predominantly maybe?) doing warranty work on relatively new guitars with new, flat, shiny finishes. The goal there is to make them look flawless. Any time the binding comes loose on a Martin there will be a break in the finish, so you have to deal with that if you want "flawless" to be the end result.

All of the work I'm doing is on older guitars where the finish is not new looking. Even on pretty clean older guitars I often see a line where the finish is broken at the interface of the binding and side. Different materials, shrinkage, expansion and contraction account for that. This is typical even where the binding is not loose. If I can get the binding cleanly into place and glue it there, the broken finish in that area blends well with the rest of the guitar. It certainly looks better than a drop-fill and level in that area while the rest of the older finish is untouched. And if the guitar is old enough to be considered "vintage" you certainly don't want to be doing any finish touchup, not unless burning hundred dollar bills counts as fun.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by mirwa

the binding is scraped or sanded flush with the body

Bit of a nitpick, I know, but most, probably all, high-end builders engineer their binding rabbets so that it is the wood of the sides that gets scraped flush with the binding, as opposed to the binding being scraped flush with the wood.

Reason being that minutely differing thicknesses along the binding can be instantly detected by the eye, whereas minutely differing thicknesses in the sides are completely undetectable.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Bit of a nitpick, I know, but most, probably all, high-end builders engineer their binding rabbets so that it is the wood of the sides that gets scraped flush with the binding, as opposed to the binding being scraped flush with the wood.

Not to nitpick, but I'm not aware of anyone, let alone most, who chose to level the sides to the binding. It's a lot of work to do what you suggest.