In scales, learn the pattern or the notes or the intervals - first?

[naccoachbob]

These are questions that I probably know the answer to, but still need to ask.
I learned the minor pentatonic just by playing the different patterns. Most of the time, I could find the root - but not all. And I didn't have an instructor working with me.
The instructor I'm working with now is having me learn modes. I've got the pattern of Ionian in G under my fingers today, and I'm making myself try to learn the intervals as I go.
I see, for me, that to do things I can dream about doing in the future, I think I should also probably learn the notes of those intervals.
For those who have done this, what advice would you give as to the order of learning things?
Would you learn the pattern of Ionian, and take it over the different keys as I did for pentatonic? Then learn the intervals and then the notes?
Or learn one scale along with intervals and notes?
Would you then take the Dorian of the G scale and then learn it's notes and intervals? Finally ending up knowing all the different modes for one key before going to the next?
There's just so very much to learn, and I know it's going to take a while.
Just trying to take the first step of this journey with a good plan.
Should have asked last night at the lesson what he thought, but didn't, and he's working a lot, so hate to bother him much outside the practice room.
All advice is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Bob

[rick-slo]

Depends partly in what context(s) you are going to use the scales, but probably patterns first off and their associated technique polishing and tip offs (such as what finger on the root note for major versus minor scales, etc.). The intervals come automatically from the patterns and the names are mainly for communication.

[rogthefrog]

Everything I do is based on intervals. I find learning patterns is counterproductive and learning intervals (in your ears and your fingers) lets you learn scales, chords and modes so much faster.

I'd start with the easy (to hear) ones: octave, m3, M3, b2, b5. Then 5, M7. Then m7, 4, m6, 6 and 2. One you can hear those, and play them, you can easily make new chords from any chord. If you know a 1-3-5 chord, and know your intervals, you can make it minor, or dominant, diminished, add6, etc. And since most people in the west can hear the major scale, you can derive every other mode by tweaking intervals. Mixolydian? Major but drop the 7. Lydian? Major but raise the 4. Dorian? Call Carlos Santana.

I don't know if this works for everybody, but it works for me.

[Luke_]

Santana is all Dorian all day! Lol

One you know the Ionian pattern you can shift it right or left to determine the key... The pattern stays the same, but always associate the pattern with its quality and reference or end on the root while practicing. It will help you associate quality and key

But what happens if you start on the second note of the Ionian pattern (as your root) and play the pattern exactly the same as before?

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Luke_

But what happens if you start on the second note of the Ionian pattern (as your root) and play the pattern exactly the same as before?

Carlos shows up

[Luke_]

Precisely, it becomes Dorian... And so on

So example... G Ionian middle finger root on the G (third fret 6th string) major scale do-re-me... And so on...

So starting the same exact pattern using your pinky first (On the A) is the second notes of the Ionian pattern but becomes A Dorian.

So let's stay in position with that pattern and you start of the 5th note of the G Ionian pattern. What does that become?

[Fruitloop]

You are confusing modes with patterns. For example if you play in G major, it doesn't matter where you start or what pattern you are playing it is still the key of G major. The mode comes from the underlying harmony, what are the chords and how they are played. An example would be an Am-D vamp, play anything from the Gmajor scale over it and it will be A Dorian.

My suggestion would be to learn all the triads over the neck first (the CAGED system), after that the major scale just falls in place. IMO trying to think too much in modes just overcomplicates things.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

…Should have asked last night at the lesson what he thought, but didn't, and he's working a lot, so hate to bother him much outside the practice room.
All advice is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Bob

Hi Bob...

You should bother your teacher. He has a plan for your learning which you don't want to waste time (and money) guessing if you are doing correctly.

As a teacher, when my students first begin learning scales, we learn notes, intervals, scale degree and note names for each scale. If they cannot sing, they say the note names as they play them or they say the scale degree of the note (whichever I ask them to do) as they play them.

Intervals inside of scales and modes are pretty easy. I don't make them memorize those since you can figure them out on the fly.

We do say root-whole-whole-half whole-whole-whole-half (interval formula of a major scale) a bunch when we start learning scales.

Interval focus for me starts when we begin playing arpeggiated chords.

Scale degree within the key, and within each chord (which you didn't include) is probably one of the more important things to learn, perhaps even more important than just note names.

[naccoachbob]

Larry, your point is well taken. I'll do that.
I guess when I start something, I want to plan it thru the whole way.
But I've got the rest of the week to do the first form, so I'll just take that one step, and ask him how we're going to go from there.
One crime at a time!!
Thanks to all for your input, I'm taking what I can from each of them.
Bob

[state-it]

One other factor is age: I know that as a teen I'd have had a fair crack at learning them simultaneously.

I know for a fact that for me that is no longer possible.

A good teacher should pick up on your abilities and tailor their method to suit...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Luke_

Precisely, it becomes Dorian... And so on

So example... G Ionian middle finger root on the G (third fret 6th string) major scale do-re-me... And so on...

So starting the same exact pattern using your pinky first (On the A) is the second notes of the Ionian pattern but becomes A Dorian.

So let's stay in position with that pattern and you start of the 5th note of the G Ionian pattern. What does that become?

This is slightly misleading. Just "starting on" a different note of the scale doesn't mean it becomes a mode in any practical sense.

I know you know that it's the root quality - the tonal centre effect - that matters . But that's not achieved just by starting on that note when playing the scale.

With the major scale - yes, we hear "do re mi fa so la ti do" when we start on the root and play up the scale. But we don't quite hear the modes in the same way, because they are less familiar sounds. They can just sound like "major scale starting on a different note" (ie, "do" still feels like the keynote, even when you start somewhere else).

To really hear the modes, it's better to (a) end on the mode root (as well as starting on it), but also (b) play that note more than the others, make sure it sounds like the keynote. (Alternatively, use a chord with that root note as a backing track.)

Naturally - as you say - this can be done from within any pattern of the major scale. There are no "modal fret patterns". The 7 notes of any scale occur everywhere on the neck (as do all its modes), and it's how we play them that produces modal sounds, not where we play them.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

These are questions that I probably know the answer to, but still need to ask.
I learned the minor pentatonic just by playing the different patterns. Most of the time, I could find the root - but not all. And I didn't have an instructor working with me.
The instructor I'm working with now is having me learn modes. I've got the pattern of Ionian in G under my fingers today, and I'm making myself try to learn the intervals as I go.
I see, for me, that to do things I can dream about doing in the future, I think I should also probably learn the notes of those intervals.

Yes, that will help.

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

For those who have done this, what advice would you give as to the order of learning things?
Would you learn the pattern of Ionian, and take it over the different keys as I did for pentatonic?

Yes, but I would learn the C major scale all over the fretboard first.
If that seems too challenging for now, learn all the notes in open position (up to fret 5 anyway). Then learn major scales in that position - which will mean a different pattern for each one, of course.
Don't take them up the neck until you fully understand how they work in open position, and with the chords in those particular keys.
(The major scales of C, G, D, A and E are recommended, in that order.)
Once you know open position really well, then the rest of the neck won't take long to learn at all. The link with chords in each key is especially important, and revealing. You can get too deep into scales.

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

Then learn the intervals and then the notes?

Intervals (their sounds and shapes) are critical, and you can regard note names as simply a route to that goal.
Note names (like chord names) are simply labels - labels are useful, naturally, but it's the sounds that matter; and moreover the sounds of notes together (intervals and chords) that make music.

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

Would you then take the Dorian of the G scale and then learn it's notes and intervals? Finally ending up knowing all the different modes for one key before going to the next?

Well the notes (modes of one scale) are all the same of course.
Interval relationships differ, and that's where modal qualities apply.
Eg, the major scale is defined mainly by it's 3rd, 4th and 7th (major, perfect and major, respectively).
Dorian mode is defined mainly by its 3rd, 6th and 7th (minor, major and minor respectively).
Again, those are only labels, and it's the patterns on the fretboard which will let you access the sounds.
I.e., when you play the G major scale, you need to know (1) where all the G's are, then (2) how the other notes all relate to G. Eg., the sound (and position) of the 3rd (B) relative to G, which gives the "major" effect.
When you play A dorian mode (same 7 notes), you need to know where all the A's are. And then how the other notes relate to that; eg. the sound (and position) of the 3rds (C) relative to the As (which gives the "minor" effect); and the position of the F#s (the major 6th which gives the "dorian" effect, relative to A and C).

Originally Posted by naccoachbob

There's just so very much to learn, and I know it's going to take a while.
Just trying to take the first step of this journey with a good plan.
Should have asked last night at the lesson what he thought, but didn't, and he's working a lot, so hate to bother him much outside the practice room.

I think you should trust your teacher, not some bunch of dudes on an internet forum! Forget all the above!
Any good teacher is always happy to answer any question - even outside the lesson, if it can be answered by phone or email. Teachers love curious students! and they hate to think a student goes away from a lesson confused.
It's quite common to think you understand something in a lesson, and then realise later you didn't, quite. If you don't want to bother him before the next lesson - if he really is too busy - make sure you ask next time; and ask first thing, don't leave it till the end. You want to go over what you did last lesson, make sure you really get it; no problem if the planned topic for that lesson gets delayed.

[naccoachbob]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I think you should trust your teacher, not some bunch of dudes on an internet forum! Forget all the above!
Any good teacher is always happy to answer any question - even outside the lesson, if it can be answered by phone or email. Teachers love curious students! and they hate to think a student goes away from a lesson confused.
It's quite common to think you understand something in a lesson, and then realise later you didn't, quite. If you don't want to bother him before the next lesson - if he really is too busy - make sure you ask next time; and ask first thing, don't leave it till the end. You want to go over what you did last lesson, make sure you really get it; no problem if the planned topic for that lesson gets delayed.

LOL, John. I was hoping you'd reply on this.
I did exactly what you recommended, we got on it first thing this Wed. Because there are 12 keys, and 7 modes, I'm going to go slowly with this, and take whatever time is needed to understand.
I did tell him also, that I was not interested in playing lead guitar at all. I want to become a good rhythm player. However, I can see good coming from here, and although this won't be my primary focus, I will learn it. If for nothing else, it will help to learn the fretboard.
We're going to get into learning the triads all over the neck as well. I think that's probably where I need to hunker down, along with double stop thirds, sixths, etc. Figuring out different rhythm patterns to use.
After the lesson, his next student came in. It's a man whose daughter I coached in soccer about 15 yrs ago, so I've know him for a long time. He, from time to time, has my instructor and other players come out to his house to jam, and it's exactly what I've been wanting to do. I haven't played but once with another player since I came back to playing guitar. So this will be a ball. That's one reason I want to learn rhythm. I want to be able to find my space in the "mix" and be someone who really adds to the song without trying to be the soloist. In addition, my instructor has told me he wants me to come play some night after I'm comfortable when he and his wife are doing a gig. I haven't played in front of a crowd since 1968
Lastly, I'm the kind of person who, when he goes into doing something like a hobby, goes full out. With other hobbies, I've burned out after a while. The thing about guitar is there are so many facets of playing, so many styles, that I'm nowhere near burning out!!
Thank each of you for replying. I have much to learn. Just posting questions like this helps motivate me.
Bob

[Luke_]

Originally Posted by JonPR

But we don't quite hear the modes in the same way, because they are less familiar sounds. They can just sound like "major scale starting on a different note" (ie, "do" still feels like the keynote, even when you start somewhere else).

To really hear the modes, it's better to (a) end on the mode root (as well as starting on it), but also (b) play that note more than the others, make sure it sounds like the keynote. (Alternatively, use a chord with that root note as a backing track.)

Naturally - as you say - this can be done from within any pattern of the major scale. There are no "modal fret patterns". The 7 notes of any scale occur everywhere on the neck (as do all its modes), and it's how we play them that produces modal sounds, not where we play them.

Of course I should been I bit more thorough on my explanation. I agree with you totally, droning the "root" note will also help one begin to hear the mode as a "do re me...." Like melody or pattern