Torrified backs?

[hat]

Now that all the big makers have jumped on the torrified bandwagon, I wonder how long it will be before one of them starts to use this process on the guitar backs also? I think this would really help with opening up the sound of a guitar a lot more quickly. If the torrification process mimics the aging process, then a guitar built with top, back, and sides all terrified should sound like my 1950's Gibson, right?

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by hat

Now that all the big makers have jumped on the torrified bandwagon, I wonder how long it will be before one of them starts to use this process on the guitar backs also? I think this would really help with opening up the sound of a guitar a lot more quickly. If the torrification process mimics the aging process, then a guitar built with top, back, and sides all terrified should sound like my 1950's Gibson, right?

Many good things but it is said to be more brittle. Why add that quality to the supporting members when they add just a little to tone?

[Italian Spruce]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Many good things but it is said to be more brittle. Why add that quality to the supporting members when they add just a little to tone?

So basically what you're saying is you disagree with Bourgeois, Huss & Dalton and Santa Cruz's assessments that torrefied tops are more stable, and that you believe they add "just a little" to tone as opposed to their views that they do more for tone than almost anything else they've tried.

By the way, Bourgeois have started torrefying Mahogany backs and sides and Collings has torrefied Maple backs.

[ukejon]

I believe Doubleneck is commenting only on the treatment of backs and sides.

[RTA48]

Both Maple and Mahogany work well with torrefaction according to Dan Bourgeois! The Rosewood became very brittle and he could not bend them.

I spent last weekend with a Bourgeois Country Boy Dread that was ALL torrefied except the neck. It was a nicely built guitar, very dry tone to it.

While I wouldn't trade it even for my Kimseyfied - Martin D 18 GE, I am certain that someone will really enjoy that guitar!

Some of this cooking of the wood is not really new news. Many of the makers have been heating/drying out their top woods for years. Gallagher has what they call their HOT ROOM that all woods go into for a time prior to being used in a build.

[hat]

It makes sense that the Rosewood didn't respond well to the Torrification. Maple and Mahogany are both pretty naturally 'dry' woods. Rosewood is naturally very oily, even dried. I believe Ebony is also.

[Montesdad]

Taylor has been processing their woods for years, drying them out then adding the proper moisture content for their purposes.
They've been torrefying the back/side sets on their maple line

It's a matter of time before they try all the woods to see what works and what doesn't.

Really intrigued with the Martin process of VTS - why fully cook the woods when preaging them to a specific degree will acquire the desired results?

[00-28]

Torrified backs? Sure, why not? What ever makes the buyer happy. ......Mike

[MikeD]

My guess is once they've saturated the target market for torrified topped guitars, the marketing departments will need something new to sell to consumers, at which point you will start to see "all torrified" guitars, meaning top, back, sides, neck, braces, bridges & fingerboards... complete with hide glue of course. I'd like to play a torrified topped guitar at some point, just to see what all the buzz is about. Maybe even bring a comparable vintage guitar with me to do a side-by-side comparison to see how they are similar & different from one another. I think my best chance to do something like that will be at the Woodstock show this fall, as I'm sure there should be a few kicking around the show.

[hat]

I do wonder how they control the process. I recall from the days when I was buying raw wood stock to season it that air drying is the preferred method. One of the reasons for this is to preserve the cell structure. When you use heat to dry wood, it tends to break down the cell structure, which weakens the wood. Using heat to dry wood also can create internal stresses in the boards, while air drying allows the wood to dry and relax naturally. They must have some way to combat this in the torrification process I guess.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts...

Personally, I am much more concerned with the quality of the softwoods and hardwoods used in the construction of my guitars than whether it has undergone torrefaction or not. By quality, I mean, well seasoned, stable, quartersawn woods, with the proper amount of cross-grain to long-grain stiffness, density, properly thicknessed and braced to work together. These factors are infinitely more important to me than a process of accelerated pyrolysis of the wood.

Using the wine analogy, if the grapes aren't good, the vinification and cooperage aren't right; all the cellaring in the world won't turn it into a great wine. The same variability that is present in untreated guitars will still exist in torrefied guitars (e.g. some will sound better than others). Guitars are complex systems based on the sum of many factors. Torrefaction may indeed prove in the long-run to be a good thing, but it is second order to the foundational attributes (mentioned above) that make a great guitar.

I will be curious to see how these guitars age over some decades of use to understand how well all the design/construction assumptions empirically derived from decades of guitar construction translate to treated materials over the long-haul.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Many good things but it is said to be more brittle. Why add that quality to the supporting members when they add just a little to tone?

Originally Posted by Italian Spruce

So basically what you're saying is you disagree with Bourgeois, Huss & Dalton and Santa Cruz's assessments that torrefied tops are more stable, and that you believe they add "just a little" to tone as opposed to their views that they do more for tone than almost anything else they've tried.

By the way, Bourgeois have started torrefying Mahogany backs and sides and Collings has torrefied Maple backs.

IS: you are confusing brittleness with a lack of stability. Torrefication increases both brittleness and stability. It also weakens glue and finish adhesion.

[SuperB23]

Gryphon had a Maple Collings with a fully torrefied body a little while back.

[cpmusic]

Originally Posted by MikeD

My guess is once they've saturated the target market for torrified topped guitars, the marketing departments will need something new to sell to consumers, at which point you will start to see "all torrified" guitars, meaning top, back, sides, neck, braces, bridges & fingerboards... complete with hide glue of course.

I have the same thought. I'm not saying that torrefaction doesn't have a positive effect on tone; I've never played a guitar with torrefied wood, so I'll defer to the experts on that.

But I wouldn't be surprised if, in 10-20 years, the market for torrefied wood is saturated and some other process takes it place, at least among the bigger companies. Heck, we may even see new guitars built from "pre-millennium" designs!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by SuperB23

Gryphon had a Maple Collings with a fully torrefied body a little while back.

That's correct, and it sounds good. The link is here:
http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpi.../index.php?z=y