#31
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Thanks for a better & lengthier explanation than I'd have come up with.
Look at it this way: IF lowering the saddle makes the first fret buzz, then you improperly cut the nut slots too low. IF you cut the nut slots properly, you can't adjust the saddle so low at to cause first fret buzz without causing buzz everywhere. |
#32
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Accomplished guitarists have never asked me to set the action almost good enough..... They want it set as low as it can be depending on the strings and their picking style.
Cutting the nut is the last thing I do after the guitar plays clean when fretting. If it makes it palettable set it up anyway you want but be aware of what I've said. And if you lower the bridge and it buzzes everywhere you have other issues causing that. " you've cut the nut incorrectly if it then buzzes when lowering the saddle" nonsense. I can't believe someone said that. If you all have been getting away with almost setting a guitar up as good as it can be, then you open the door to another guitar tech luring the players away. Whether you've been doing it for 50 or 10 years get the action low and clean playing and your skills with always be in demand. SergeantViolin.com over and out.
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Practice = doing something correct repeatedly. First you learn to do it correctly and then you practice. Last edited by SgtV; 05-22-2015 at 12:14 PM. |
#33
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Another way to think about this is to imagine a zero fret rather than a nut. The height of a zero fret isn't messed with unless all the frets are being leveled. A saddle adjustment won't necessitate a change to the height of a zero fret. If a guitar is buzzing, either the saddle height or the relief is the culprit, not the zero fret (unless it's come loose and raised up out of its slot). A properly notched nut is functionally equivalent to a zero fret and, likewise, normally shouldn't be messed with once it's properly set.
In practice, many people set the nut slots just a whisper above the plane of the frets (so that when you push down a string between frets 2 and 3, you can just barely see daylight between the string and the top of fret 1). That provides a little cushion against slot wear as the strings saw back and forth through them during restringing. But if the string just barely made contact with the top of fret 1, you'd be fine until such time as the slots deepened a bit through wear.
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Bob DeVellis |
#34
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Sorry double post.
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Practice = doing something correct repeatedly. First you learn to do it correctly and then you practice. Last edited by SgtV; 05-22-2015 at 12:08 PM. |
#35
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Quote:
Quote:
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
#36
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The neck relief tall tale.
Having a bit of neck relief may be necessary and a quick fix when the
neck/fret plane angle ain't done right or has varied. When done right the neck/fret plane is dead flat with a fade down at the body. It ain't easy to get things perfect so retailers and manufacturers, like Gibson etc etc, came up with this modification story for setups. Just because this has been around for many years doesn't make it correct. Just as my 'years' with guitars doesn't make me correct. The proof is in the pudding. We used to take all the Gibsons that were made right and save them for the players and the slightly off ones for the general population. NYC in the very early '70s. Don't let the truth cause any pain.
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Practice = doing something correct repeatedly. First you learn to do it correctly and then you practice. |
#37
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You are right that a straightedge is not needed, in the sense that no measurement is needed. It's only needed for accurate measurement. One could do all the adjustments on a guitar by tweaking and eyeballing and playing and listening, and never measure anything. Years ago, that is what I did. But I found that along with variables among different guitars come commonalities, and that the variables have mostly predictable effects. There also is the matter of time; if one can get near-perfect quickly by measuring, one can take that much more time for any final tweaking by hand, eye, and ear. Relief is a factor that is very consistent in its effect, and by measuring accurately, variables such as string tension and neck wood are accounted for and compensated for.
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"Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." --Paul Simon Last edited by Howard Klepper; 05-22-2015 at 03:11 PM. |
#38
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Nah. Not even going to entertain a response...
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
#39
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I mentioned fret leveling only because I usually find that there's ONE proud fret somewhere, or maybe two, that make it difficult to get optimal action. And it only takes one. I've seen this on new guitars and old, good and bad. I don't think you can get an optimal setup without at least examining the fretwork. I agree with Buck, Dave, Howard and a bunch of others on the order of setup steps. I think the nut is crucial, but I leave myself a few thousandths of "cushion" above the theoretical lowest setting. In addition to user error (taking one swipe of the file more than I should), I've had the slot compress slightly over time, and a guitar that was perfectly set up on day 1 was buzzing on day 14. I don't mind slowly creeping up on the best nut action over time. Some more food for thought. When the nut slot is too low and the strings are buzzing, I'm not convinced they're always buzzing on the first fret. Sure the 1st is the fret that is tallest on the "ramp" of frets, but it's also near the point of least excursion of the string. I've had strings buzzing up around the 5th or 6th fret on guitars that had low nut slots, but were set up well otherwise.
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1943 Gibson J-45 Martin Custom Shop 000-28 Authentic Aged 1937 Voyage Air VAOM-4 |
#40
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Sorry but I should have added that the neck/fret plane is raked back a bit on many guitars. I like classical and flat tops straight and electrics/adjustable brides and arch tops back as necessary. There are both sides of this discussion on the net. If I gave a player a guitar with a bow in the neck they'd ask what the problem is. Anyway if your players are happy rock on. The only relief, I guess, is not being made to make it right when you had that opportunity.
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Practice = doing something correct repeatedly. First you learn to do it correctly and then you practice. |
#41
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While yes you are correct about strings having stiffness so can sometimes exhibit deflection, with the tension they are pulling, there is very little error-induced deflection without having a significant amount of break angle to the main deflection of the string. At any rate, it is not difficult to find a holding position that negates any error that may blur an accurate sighting using strings as a visual guide. And if that ain't enough to convince you, just think of most guitars. 6 strings pulling tension above a fretboard. If the strings in general exhibited enough deflection to blur this measurement on a regular basis, then the guitar wouldn't work. If, in fact, a string gives an inaccurate measurement, it is likely because there is a kink in the string (not entirely uncommon) and this will show symptoms similar to a high fret that will become apparent when doing a final check on the instruments chromatic scale. Sometimes there is more than one method that works. My memory is not always correct, but I do believe there are other venerable members of this forum who, like me, do not prefer a straightedge to set relief. It is true that certain methods sometimes have idiosyncrasies, strengths, or weaknesses that must be understood to avoid potential issues. It is true too that our preferences can certainly change over time. We usually grow through gathering knowledge and experience. But still, sometimes moving to new methods does not improve our result, but just changes the method. For example, I used to use FFFF steel wool on frets, now I use only flexible abrasives. My results are the same. I'll state again... There exists more than one successful method to achieve an end. To say otherwise is one's own folly. Even in the case of nut vs. saddle - which comes first for adjustment?? I have my preferred method of doing the nut first as many other people do, but still many other competent artisans do the saddle before the nut. I don't argue with people who say they do the saddle first; I only argue with people who say the saddle MUST be done first otherwise it won't work and it will be wrong. Quite simply, that is Bu11$H1+!! People who do the saddle first can do it first accurately, but an idiosyncrasy to be aware of is that if the nut slots are excessively high, cutting the slots to final depth will introduce a change in the 12th fret action measurement. I do my utmost to avoid negating valid techniques others suggest just because they aren't my preferred techniques, for whatever reason. At times, I do, however, attempt to point out strengths and weaknesses of certain possible methods that are discussed on this forum. If the straightedge works for you, that is spectacular. But I'd suggest you be careful going around saying that an accurate job can't be done by using the strings to measure and set the relief. You don't want to lessen the quality of your words. That's all...
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
#42
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Nah...
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---- Ned Milburn NSDCC Master Artisan Dartmouth, Nova Scotia |
#43
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I would suggest that before you go shaving,sanding,turning and twisting; make sure your string choice is settled!(at least the gauges)
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vANCe 1976 Martin D-28(original owner) 1992 Taylor 420(original owner) 2012 RainSong H DR 1000(original owner) 2011 Gretsch Anniversary Model(original owner) Mandolin- 1920's A-Style (unknown brand) Mandolin- Fender Mandostrat Banjo -2016 Gold Tone EBM-5+ Fender 2013- Strat |
#44
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SergeantViolin.com really is worth looking at. It is insightful. |
#45
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I already had done that. And while I like a good 1911 as much as the next guy, I didn't see any insight into the guitar methodology...
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