Indian Rosewood is better than most exotic Rosewoods

[min7b5]

When Richard Hoover and I were working on specs for my model 00 guitar years ago I had the green light for any wood combination I wanted. And though I did go with cocobolo for reasons I can detail later, I kept coming back to Indian rosewood over everything else, including, if not especially, Brazilian rosewood. Good old Indian rosewood is very special indeed.

Now I don't proclaim to be any kind of expert, but my own *opinion* is that the backs and sides' contribution to "tone" is pretty tiny, at least in the classic EQ sense. I personally think it's more about how the note "behaves." For example mahogany seems very quick responding, the notes just immediately pop right out fully formed. Maple seems to have much quicker decay, etc... Within that line of thinking, what I truly love about good Indian rosewood is how the note seems to bloom -it's a little slower, but with nice long sustain that seems to warm as it develops. Playing slow lyrical single note lines on a Indian rosewood can be just sublime...

I dream about one day being able to order a spare-no-expense classical guitar, and for sure it will be a Indian rosewood guitar...

[ChalkLitIScream]

Originally Posted by FeliceTaylor

very late response i know but i totally agree. I have two martin customs - both OM and both 1 11/16. one is EIR and Englemann and the other Adi/Madagascar. Virtually the same bracing but Adirondack bracing on the latter. While there is more note definition in the latter (not sure if that's the adi or the madi), the bass just isn't as booming as the sitka/eir. If i had to keep one, the EIR would stay and this shocks me - i purchased the second as a serious upgrade and expected angels to pop out of it when i heard that first strum but it was not so different. I played it exclusively for the last three months or so and got to enjoy it greatly but when i went back to the EIR/Englemann thereafter, i was so impressed with the bass response - it just has more growl. (it is based on exact specs as the OM-28 Mayer). Anyhow i was surprised by this, which is precisely what I found to be the case with a Coccabolo (sp?) martin I played - beautiful and exotic, but not BETTER. I've never played Brazilian but i have a feeling that it is the only rosewood that will be better, to my ears, than EIR. I have a whole new outlook on EIR. It's amazing. As for the Adirondack, well, it certainly throws another important variable into my assessment that I'm not really addressing but I can say this - It's not worth what I paid for the upcharge - or I should say it's not worth it in my view, as the difference was negligible. I've started to believe that once you buy a quality martin for 3000-3700 (new price), anything above and beyond in terns of exotic woods has diminishing returns. Let me put it this way - when i play the second guitar (adi/madi), i miss the bass of my englemann/EIR, but when i play the latter, I miss nothing. If you are wondering why i didn't play the guitar first, I'm a lefty and i just couldn't find a Madi back/sides in all of NYC even right handed

I think the availability of quality wood is the factor at play here. Its generally accepted that quartersawn wood is ''better'' in the tonal and stability aspects.
I think what draws people to exotic woods is A) the looks and B) the rarity.
Both are down to the same issue. Those woods look better only because they arent quartersawn; its just not possible to get good quartersawn raare tonewoods without big big bucks.

Same goes with choosing tops. People are willing to pay more for ugly (imo) wide grained adirondack and pass up perfect sitka.
Have to say, I was in the exotic wood camp up until last week. Looking at pictures of older quartersawn exotic woods wasnt as spectacular as the flatsawn woods used today. Then really thinking about it made it clear that one should not sacrifice the quality of sound just for the looks.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Authentic

Tried various guitars with exotic Rosewoods, generally upcharges, can't help but feel many of them have more mids than EIR or are slightly brighter, not as bassy sounding as EIR. Take Madagacar Rosewood or Guatemalan Rosewood, for example. I tried them on several custom Martins and several Authentics (I created my username when I owned one myself), just can't help but feel they have a sharp brightness to them, whether it's in the trebles or the mids I can't quite put my finger on it, that EIR doesn't seem to have as much of.

You're right. EIR is dull sounding. Feel better?

[Dustinfurlow]

In my experience playing lots of Larrivee l-09s with different tonewood combos I can say on the particular cut of Madagascar rosewood they used for my custom it has a heavier bass, and (if you can believe it) more overtones in the upper register then what a Indian b/s yielded. There’s some serious shimmer when you get up high or play in DADGAD

Wouldn’t be egging this thread on if it wasn’t a real experience I had, is Madagascar better? For some things, i liked my old Alpine/EIR one more for strumming and flatpicking to be honest. In a perfect world I’d have the old Indian b/s l-09 back to switch between the two but for most things I do prefer the shimmer of the Madagascar

[baimo]

Originally Posted by Yrksman

If asked to pick four guitars, out of the twenty five I own, that I would part with last, in no particular order:

one would be Cocobolo,
one would be EIR,
one would be MadRW
and the other would be BRW.

Two would have Adirondack tops, one Lutz and the other Sitka.

Just my own preferences, yours would no doubt be different.

I have over the past year cut down my herd from aprox 15-16 high quality guitars because I am moving across the country and really did not need to haul and take proper care of that amount of guitars as I find my new home. So I decided I wanted to take 4 guitars maximum. I was sure I would stick with it, but GAS struck. Generally I like bigger guitars 000-14 and bigger. After taking that into consideration, I ended up with the following four

A Goodall Walnut/Engelmann concert jumbo
A Martin 2017 LE Mahogany Outlaw dreadnaught 9Authentic style with MLO neck)
A 2017 Martin D-28 Brazilian (who knows when or if another modern Martin Brazilian will be available)
A Froggy Bottom H-14 (OM) EIR/Adi
Just bought one that brought number to 5 A "Advanced Slope D Limited Edition" Brazilian/Adirondack Spruce Top. Just couldn't resist

In choosing. I felt that having a variety of different woods to be very important. Now that I am over 4 I want to get back to 4 so I need to sell one of these but have not decided which one yet! I have six months left to decide

[Dustinfurlow]

Originally Posted by baimo

I have over the past year cut down my herd from aprox 15-16 high quality guitars because I am moving across the country and really did not need to haul and take proper care of that amount of guitars as I find my new home. So I decided I wanted to take 4 guitars maximum. I was sure I would stick with it, but GAS struck. Generally I like bigger guitars 000-14 and bigger. After taking that into consideration, I ended up with the following four

A Goodall Walnut/Engelmann concert jumbo
A Martin 2017 LE Mahogany Outlaw dreadnaught 9Authentic style with MLO neck)
A 2017 Martin D-28 Brazilian (who knows when or if another modern Martin Brazilian will be available)
A Froggy Bottom H-14 (OM) EIR/Adi
Just bought one that brought number to 5 A "Advanced Slope D Limited Edition" Brazilian/Adirondack Spruce Top. Just couldn't resist

In choosing. I felt that having a variety of different woods to be very important. Now that I am over 4 I want to get back to 4 so I need to sell one of these but have not decided which one yet! I have six months left to decide

Not to hijack the thread but if it’s the Goodall then send me a PM sometime! XD

[Kerbie]

Please keep the buying and selling in the Classifieds or private messages. Thanks.

[jimcaleca]

I've played 2 Martin OM-28 MARQUIS' side by side, one Indian, the other Madagascar. I'm kicking myself for not buying the Indian RW Marquis. It was the better of the two to my ears.

[HeyMikey]

I've tried identical Martin models with identical materials and almost always prefer one over the other. Why? Wood is an organic and imperfect thing. No two pieces no matter how similar they appear are truly identical. I've tried well made guitars with EIR that sounded far better (to me) than others with more rare exotic tone woods.

I think there are just too many variables that go into a guitar to say that EIR does not produce as good a sound as another less common rosewood. Maybe there are just that so many more built using EIR that we find more that sound "off" in comparison. Also, the guitar that I prefer is very likely not going to be the one someone else thinks sounds better. All humans have two ears, but none hear the same thing the exact same way.

I say, ignore the marketing spin regarding exotics and get what you like best. If you are attracted to the appearance of special woods and adornments, then that is cool. Nothing wrong with that! But as long as you start with quality materials then quality workmanship can make any guitar sound terrific.

[Steadfastly]

To get a realistic view, wouldn't you have to take the same guitar and replace the top? There are too many other variables to do it any other way, isn't there?

[stringjunky]

Like Alan Carruth said recently, you have to assess the individual pieces of wood in hand for the desired properties, not the species.

I'm quite the opposite, I can't find a rosewood I DON'T like. I love them all and yeah, they all do have slight variations in sound. I have a Martin with Guatemalan rosewood but I don't detect any brightness in the mids on mine. In fact it's warm and has smooth overtones. My Taylor has brighter mids and it's EIR. I like them both but in different ways.

[gitarro]

We judge so much with our eyes that our very perception of tone is affected. So i have no idea if east indian rosewood is worse than other rosewoods. I hace owned and own fine guitars made of eirw and made of more exotic rosewoods. At the end of the day we have to judge it by the specific guitar concerned. I recall playing an eirw and abw guitars made by the same luthier. The eirw guitar was vastly superior.

[justonwo]

I like to think of Indian rosewood as the Brazilian rosewood of India.

[gitarro]

Speaking of brazilian rosewood however, i strongly suspect that it can impart an extra edge ofquality to the tone compared to other tonewoods. That is of course a generalisatoon and a very subjective opinion and there are always exceptions. The quality I'm thinking about is a greater clarity and overtime content and glassiness but also of clarity in the fundamental.