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  #1  
Old 06-03-2008, 07:13 AM
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open-road-matt open-road-matt is offline
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Default Pickup Problem, Hoping for Advice

Hey Folks,
I took a trip a bit south yesterday to a music store to have some jacks/pickups soldered up and one of my set ups seems to have a problem. The one that is a bit strange is an Allparts stereo 1/4" jack with a K&K mini on the ring and ground and 3.5mm jack on the tip and ground.

The 3.5mm jack is for a Sunrise magnetic sound hole pickup. The guy that was doing the work soldered a 14" Mogami cable to the tip and ground of the 1/4" jack (this is part of a Sunrise installation kit) and then set about soldering the 3.5mm jack to the end of this cable. He kept screwing it up and each time he would start over, he would cut a little bit off of this cable.

When he finally got it soldered on, he hands me the jack and the once 14" cable is now down to about 6"! The point of using the mini jack and plug for the Sunrise is so you can remove it if needed. These plugs are supposed to sit right under the sound hole. With only a 6" cable coming off the 1/4" jack, the connection will have to take place way down in the guitar. And the Sunrise pickup only has an 8" wire on it so now I'm worried that it won't even be able to reach the jack.

I should have had him fix it and put the right length of cable in there but this had already taken over 2 hours! I had my son with me and we still had another jack to rig up. The only solution I could come up with was to have him lengthen the cable between the Sunrise and the mini plug so it would reach the jack. He was able to wire up the second jack with no trouble.

Last night, I got both jacks with pickups installed and the output of the Sunrise that needed the cable extended is significantly less than the other Sunrise. I can make it work with my Pendulum SPS-1 if I crank the volume of the Sunrise channel all the way up on the rack unit. (with the other Sunrise the volume is at 12 o'clock) My hope was to use a Fishman Pocket Blender for the times I don't have my SPS-1. The "good" Sunrise works fine with the Pocket Blender but the "bad" Sunrise is unusable. By the time I get the volume up to where I can hear it, there is a loud hum.

Do you think it is the cable set up that is causing this or could I have a bad Sunrise? If a Sunrise has an 8" cable attached and the installation kit comes with a 14" cable for the mini jack, that is 22" of cable total, minus a bit for the work to solder the mini plug and jack. Without pulling everything out to measure, I would guess that what I have in cable length with the "bad" Sunrise is close to this.

It seems like I have three options:

1) pull everything out and try to get it fixed.

2) use a Sunrise SB-2 preamp when I use the Pocket Blender. If I go this route, can someone tell me if the best way to go would be to use a very short stereo cable to go from the 1/4" to the SB-2 and then a long cable out to the Pocket Blender? I am guessing that getting the SB-2 as close to the 1/4" jack as possible would be best but maybe I'm wrong.

3) give up and only use this stereo setup when I have my Pendulum. This is all on a second jack in my CA guitar. I have the iMix in the other jack. I had to pull out the iBeam to install the K&K but I still have the Element and I could just run that through a PARA DI and be done.

Any advice would be great.

Thanks!
Matt
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:17 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Matt,

The old style PUTW Power Plug could be set on "stereo" and it would preamp the tip signal while passively passing thru the ring signal on the ring channel of a stereo cable. If I understand you correctly, you have the mini-Pure on the ring and you're getting plenty of signal there. Your problem is that the Sunrise signal is so weak that you have to amplify it to such an extent that you're also amplifying the hum (picked up by the cable between the guitar and blender) to a noticeable level.

An old style Power Plug (with a mono/stereo switch and adjustable gain control) could do the job by boosting the tip signal right at your strap-jack (as the SPS-1 module does). I suspect that you could explain your situation to PUTW's David Enke and he would make you one.

I tend to think, however, that something is wrong with your Sunrise setup if the signal is so weak. Just how did this tech extend the cable from the Sunrise? It seems to me that all you needed was a little extension mono cable with a 3.5mm jack on one end and a 3.5mm plug on the other.

Gary

PS Another somewhat weird possibility, since the tip signal is very weak. Is it possible that the only thing which you're really getting at the tip is the "crosstalk" signal from the mini-Pure on the ring?

Last edited by guitaniac; 06-03-2008 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:04 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Yeah, this seems odd. In my experience, the passive K&Ks and a Sunrise have about the same output levels, at least not so different as you're describing. It seems unlikely the wiring would be the cause, but maybe. Can you just bypass the in-guitar wiring by plugging the Sunrise into another cable (get any adaptors you need at Radio Shack) outside the guitar? That would at least isolate the issue to either the Sunrise (or the plug you have on it) or top the new wiring in the guitar.
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Old 06-03-2008, 12:48 PM
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Gary and Doug!
Thanks for the help. I got a call today from the fellow that did the work on the jacks. I explained what was going on and he said he would call Jim Kaufman at Sunrise and see if he can shed some light on this. I am going to pull the "bad" Sunrise out of the CA and try it in the other guitar. The other guitar has the exact same set up and the output of the Sunrise the same as the K&K. I'll try that now and report back.

Thanks!
Matt
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Old 06-03-2008, 01:45 PM
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Default It's something with the jack

I just pulled the "bad" Sunrise out of the CA and tried it in the other guitar and it's not the Sunrise. So I guess I have to quit calling it the "bad" Sunrise. It sounded fine and the output was the same as the K&K's so it is something in the jack. There's good news and bad news to that. The good news is, thanks to your help, the problem is isolated. The bad news is that will be more of a pain to fix. The K&K's are soldered directly to the ring and ground.

Just for fun I used a dual 1/4" cable to blend together the K&K's with the Element with the Pocket Blender and now the K&K's are doing the same thing the Sunrise was: when I turn it up so I have enough output to hear the K&K's, there is a bunch of hum. So there is something wrong with the K&K's, the jack or both and I don't know how to figure out which one without having the 1/4" jack replaced. I'd hate to do that and find out the problem is something with the K&K's.

I don't really know what to do. I'm tempted to pull out the jack, remove the K&K's (if possible) put the iBeam back in, cover the second jack hole with electrical tape and forget the whole thing. Run the iMix in mono into my Para DI and try and forget that 1) I spent all day yesterday having this done, 2) I was charged what I think is too much for labor considering this all should have taken about 1/2 hour, 3) I would be ruining a set of K&K minis and throwing away a 1/4" jack, a bunch of Mogami audio wire and a 3.5mm jack and plug, 3) I bought a second Sunrise I wouldn't need and 4) I have a hole in my guitar covered by electrical tape.

Any advice?
Matt
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Old 06-04-2008, 01:39 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Hi Matt,

I won't comment too extensively now because I'm in off the road in the middle of the night. Also, I don't quite understand what you did with the "dual 1/4" cable", unless you're referring to a stereo-to-Y cable. If you used that, remember that those Y ends are mono plugs, neither of which will pick up the K&K signal if its at the ring of one of the strap-jacks.

In any event, I just want to say take a deep breath and relax a bit. I think its a little too soon to start ripping stuff out. I know its frustrating, but stuff happens. Yesterday I had an act cancel on me with just one day's notice and only half an hour to find a replacement before hitting the road. Later that night, the "feature act" for my other open mic showed up an hour late and screwed the schedule up royally. I was lucky to get thru the night with only one act being outraged enough to leave in a huff.

Gary
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Also, I don't quite understand what you did with the "dual 1/4" cable", unless you're referring to a stereo-to-Y cable. If you used that, remember that those Y ends are mono plugs, neither of which will pick up the K&K signal if its at the ring of one of the strap-jacks.
Oops. You're right. No wonder it sounded weird. I checked the K&K's this morning and they seem to be just fine. In fact, they sound quite nice by themselves through the Pocket Blender so I could go that route this weekend if needed. I am going to try and find someone who can look at the jack today and maybe resolder the mini jack if necessary.

Thanks!
Matt
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:24 AM
dberch dberch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
Oops. You're right. No wonder it sounded weird. I checked the K&K's this morning and they seem to be just fine. In fact, they sound quite nice by themselves through the Pocket Blender so I could go that route this weekend if needed. I am going to try and find someone who can look at the jack today and maybe resolder the mini jack if necessary.

Thanks!
Matt
Try a K&K Pure preamp. You may just decide a mic is not worth the hassle.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dberch View Post
Try a K&K Pure preamp. You may just decide a mic is not worth the hassle.
Hi David,
It's not a mic I'm trying to wire in. The mini jack that is connected to the tip and ground is for a Sunrise magnetic sound hole pickup. I do like the way the K&K sound in the CA by themselves. I also like the way a Sunrise sounds in there so the goal is to get both in there. As for the K&K preamp, I bought a Pendulum SPS-1 this spring so my preamp buying days are over. At least they should be! :-)

As for this on-going saga, the guy that I was hoping would look at the jack in the CA guitar isn't around. Not being able to leave well enough alone, I pulled the jack out to take a look. All of the connections looked fine. The only thing I noticed was that the guy who did all of this didn't clamp those little wings over the cables. I think those exist so that if there is any pulling on the cables the pressure goes to those little wings and not the soldered parts. So I got out some needle nose pliers and clamped those down.

Just to keep testing, I unplugged the Element from the iMix and I used a 2.5mm female to 3.5mm male adapter to try the Element in the 3.5mm jack. It worked perfectly and the output was the same as the K&K! I tried the Sunrise with the cable extension (the one with low output that started all of this) again and it still had very low output. I then pulled the other Sunrise out of the other guitar and tried in in the CA. It worked perfectly! Good tone and same output as the K&K!

I quickly put the other strings back on the CA, tuned it up and tried it out with the Pocket Blender. It works just fine. Good tone from both the Sunrise and the K&K. Since I had tested the Sunrise with the cable extension in the other guitar, I put that in the other guitar and tried that out. That works too! The overall output of the two guitars is different (CA output is less), but in each guitar, the output of the Sunrise and the K&K's are the same.

How can this be? I'm happy that everything seems to be working but I'm suspicious too. Is there any reason that the Sunrise with the cable extension would work in one guitar and not the other? Should I be concerned that the output of the CA is lower than the other guitar?

Thanks again for all the help!
Matt
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:31 AM
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For what it's worth, this K&K + Magnetic is the combination I've been using, and I really like the results, so to me at least, it's worth the hassle to get it working. I've been using a Fishman Rare Earth Blend or a Duncan MagMic instead of the Sunrise, since both are smaller and lighter, and also have mics. So I'm essentially getting a 3-source pickup. Both the Rare Earth and MagMic are active, which adds some hassle, but both support the batteries right on the pickup, so I still have no battery pack inside the guitar. I wire the K&K on the tip, so that's my default, and I can plug in anywhere with a normal guitar cord and it works fine. If I need to play somewhere that's extra loud, I can always just use the magnetic (and both these pickups can sound pretty good by themselves), for the greatest headroom before feedback. And with my own setup, I can use both, and they sound very nice together.

Anyway, I think you'll like the result, so keep plugging away.
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:59 PM
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Anyway, I think you'll like the result, so keep plugging away.
I remain cautiously optimistic. I've been playing the CA guitar on and off all day and everything continues to work and Doug, you are right the results are great.

On a side note, I restrung the CA with some strings that came with a guitar. The brand is Curt Mangan and they sound fantastic on my CA. So the guitar, as of now is sounding very nice through the Pocket Blender/Dual Para DI and very, very, very nice through the SPS-1 and with the SPS-1, it doesn't seem to matter the ratio between Sunrise and K&K, it sounds good all over!

I still don't know what would all of a sudden make this work. I have to fly to a show this weekend so I hope it at least keeps working for the next few days!

Matt
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:34 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Matt,

Its possible that you just had a bad connection with the 3.5mm plug and jack the first time around, and that what you were getting on the tip channel wasn't a weak Sunrise signal at all, but actually some faint "crosstalk" from the mini-Pure on the ring channel. Its possible that once you switched pickups around and reconnected it, you got a better connection.

As long as you have the stereo cable, you'll at least be able to use the mini-Pure by itself if the problem returns and the Sunrise goes out on you. There's also a way to wire a mono cable so that it accesses the ring signal rather than the tip signal. (Stereo plug, with hot lead wired to ring contact, on the cable end which goes to the strap-jack.)

Gary
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Its possible that you just had a bad connection with the 3.5mm plug and jack the first time around, and that what you were getting on the tip channel wasn't a weak Sunrise signal at all, but actually some faint "crosstalk" from the mini-Pure on the ring channel. Its possible that once you switched pickups around and reconnected it, you got a better connection.
I hope that is it. I wish I knew more about this stuff. I need to educate myself without monkeying around with important gear. When something goes wrong I feel as inept as when I have car trouble. I just open the hood and stand there, hoping something happens. I feel like I did the guitar repair equivalent and something did happen!

I am going to bring both the Pocket Blender and the Dual Para DI with me tomorrow and you are right, if worse comes to worse I can use the K&K and if something totally gives out on that jack, I have the other jack with the Element I could use.

Thanks for all the help!
Matt
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:15 PM
toddfields@mac. toddfields@mac. is offline
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Default Question for Doug???

Doug...
by the way thanks for all the pickup work you've done...it's been a great resource for many people!
I have a rare earth blend that I like, but have also have a k&k pw mini in my guitar. How do you run the blend together with the K&K? That would be a great combination, but it's 3 sources...??
Thanks!
Todd Fields
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:55 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Doug,

What confuses me about your setup is that you have both an active pickup system and a passive pickup on a single stereo jack. Is there a third jack contact which acts as a switch for the active system? Is your active system powered on when you have a mono plug in the jack and are only accessing the mini-Pure signal?

I'm also curious as to whether you're needing to phase invert one of the signals for a better blend. I've needed to do that when blending the NanoMag signal with a UST signal for one of my dual source rigs (separate jacks in this case).

Gary
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