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  #16  
Old 08-07-2013, 12:42 PM
Dogsnax Dogsnax is offline
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Originally Posted by steve j. View Post
Im enjoying this style,, although the rhythms /compass are not coming naturally, this is what I got so far,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiBJ4TrrGAY
Hey Steve...thanks for the youtube clip and I totally understand that learning compas is truly a process. I'm all about practicing patterns and rhythms slow and only adding speed when I'm error-free. Establishing new neuropathways!

I ordered three flamenco cds to help with the learning process - it was recommended I listen to Manolo Sanlucar, Vincente Amigo, and Gerardo Nunez. It helps me to listen over and over, absorbing the rhythms and patterns. CDs should arrive late this week, early next week.
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  #17  
Old 08-07-2013, 03:30 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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These guys are not, repeat NOT going to help you with the compas, even though they are excellent concert guitarists. For learning compas, start with music from the '60's and '70's, before the "modern" studios got involved.

Listen particularly to records of that era accompanying dancers - Manuela Vargas' albums (Juan Maya "Marote" accompanying), Sabicas/Carmen Amaya ("Flamenco", "Queen of the Gypsies"), Juan "Morao" Moraito, anything from the festivals from Jerez on YouTube, with the caveat that even there, the guitarists are often subject to artistic conceits and meaningless wandering. Serranito, especially when he accompanies Lucerito Tena on early albums. Paco Pena is an excellent choice, the Habichuelas (especially the father on the older records) And particularly Manolo Brenes, the best accompanist I've heard anywhere (and you've never heard of), who is very, very prominent in the Rito y Geografia del Cante Flamenco and elsewhere. There is a Bulerias where he accompanies Beni de Cadiz (a tour de force), and a Siguiryas with Diego Clavel (that will tear your heart out) on the latter collection.

And don't forget Nino Ricardo, Don Ramon Montoya, Melchor Marchena (y hijo) and many, many others from earlier periods, who were immersed in the tradition, or were prominent in developing the foundations for the '60's. There are many, many others.....

Anyone accompanying Chocolate is going to be OK. Anyone accompanying Bernarda and Fernanda de Utrera will be fine (except for Diego del Gastor in the R&G, I hate to say; he must have been feeling off that day. I love Diego, but that wasn't his best work (IMO, but I'd get a LOT of flack on the flamenco forums).... .

======================================
But these guys are into "advancing" Flamenco, whatever that means, and go off into their own worlds, mostly. PdL is excellent in three albums: "El Duende de la Guitarra de Paco de Lucia", "Fuente y Caudal", "Fabulosa Guitarra de Paco de Lucia", (and his first 45, "La Guitarra de Paco de Lucia") and records where he (and anyone else) accompanies Camaron. Be very careful and ask people experience in Flamenco - who have accompanied dance and song themselves, and are familiar with the history of the art, before you delve into "Flamenco after 1978". This is not because I am from that period, but much of the rhythmic and scale/key/chord progressions have become confused and mired in unnecessary (and unwarranted) complexity. It is very easy to go very, very wrong, and waste a lot of time and money without getting to the foundations.. But there is good stuff on YouTube - you'll know it when you see it..... (maybe .. with time and experience...)

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Originally Posted by Dogsnax View Post
I ordered three flamenco cds to help with the learning process - it was recommended I listen to Manolo Sanlucar, Vincente Amigo, and Gerardo Nunez. It helps me to listen over and over, absorbing the rhythms and patterns. CDs should arrive late this week, early next week.

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 08-08-2013 at 09:18 AM.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2013, 04:29 PM
Dogsnax Dogsnax is offline
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Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
These guys are not, repeat NOT going to help you with the compas, even though they are excellent concert guitarists. For learning compas, start with music from the '60's and '70's, before the "modern" studios got involved.
Chuck - thanks so very much for the excellent insight and I'll take your recommendation regarding the earlier recordings. As the ol' saying goes, I have to learn how to walk before I run. This is all brand spanking new to me and I'm learning that Flamenco is very steeped in history and tradition.

I'll definitely order a few cds by the players you recommend. Thanks!

Fred
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  #19  
Old 08-07-2013, 04:50 PM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Another great albums in the tradition:
Furia! with Carmen Amaya (accompanied by Juan Maya "Marote" and Carmen's father.
Flamenco Spectacular - great except for the Verdiales....
Sevilla - Cuna del Cante Flamenco

But the absolute BEST - Rito y Geografia del Cante Flamenco.

http://www.flamencon.com/miva/mercha...Category_Code=
http://www.deflamenco.com/tienda/pro...te-7-dvds.html
https://www.flamenco-world.com/tiend...a2e5a8e2028caf

(search the stores on "Rito y Geografia del Cante")

Here's an article by my friend and prominent American flamencologist Brook Zern (who sent me the whole thing on VHS videotapes over 30 years ago when they not available to the general public. He told me he got them via the Queen of Spain - yes, he is THAT important in the world of flamenco. Read everything he writes and PAY ATTENTION!

www.flamencoexperience.com

When I got them, I showed my friend Richard Black a well-known American Flamenco singer who asked if he could have a copy. I said I'd have to talk to Brook, so I called him and Richard sang for him over the phone. Brook immediately gave his "OK". So I copied all the videotapes and sent them off to Richard. But you really, really, REALLY have sing well - like Richard, and besides, most of them (well, ok, some of them) are available commercially and on YouTube. ): http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...be._WrMNnlWcMc

http://www.flamencoexperience.com/blog/?cat=96

(Rito de la Guitarra and Rito del Baile are excellent also, but the above collection has MARVELOUS stuff in it....)

Also strongly Recommended (But I can't believe Amazon's prices):

The Art of Flamenco by D.E. Pohren http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Flamen.../dp/0933224028
Lives and Legends of Flamenco: http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Legends-...ds+of+flamenco

Try www.deflamenco.com, or one of the other Flamenco vendors...)
http://www.deflamenco.com/tienda/carrito.html (Search on "Pohren"; all the books are worthwhile...)
http://www.flamencon.com/miva/merchant.mvc?

Film:
I like Carlos Sauras's "Blood Wedding" and "Carmen". I'm not wild about any of his other films, but you may like them "Flamenco", etc..
"Los Tarantos" with Carmen Amaya
"Andalusian Journey"
"Flamenco" (Arts for the Humanities except for the Verdiales - same kid, I think..)
"Latchlo Drom" is an excellent film that shows where it all came from (before Spain)

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 08-07-2013 at 10:58 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-08-2013, 01:01 PM
AfterViewer AfterViewer is offline
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Great info Thread!
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  #21  
Old 04-01-2014, 11:34 PM
Garrison314 Garrison314 is offline
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This is an old thread that I found to be very informative. Now to find a gypsy jazz thread.
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2014, 09:05 AM
BuleriaChk BuleriaChk is offline
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Originally Posted by Garrison314 View Post
This is an old thread that I found to be very informative. Now to find a gypsy jazz thread.
"Gypsy Jazz" (as performed by Django Rheinhardt) is generally thought (ok, at least by me) as locally centered around the southern part of France, and is performed by "Rom" Gypsies on steel string guitars with picks...


Flamenco is indigenous to Spain; in particular southern Spain (Andalucía), and is performed on nylon string guitars with fingernails by "Calo" Gypsies.

The music styles and techniques are very, very different (Manitas de Plata and the Gypsy Kings are from southern France, which is why their "Flamenco" is not taken seriously by anyone except foreigners and those that don't understand the art, Nevertheless, they do not perform "Gypsy Jazz"; "Pop Flamenco" would be a better term).

Gypsy Jazz and Flamenco can be compared in the film "Latchlo Drom" in the last third or so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weYhYy5u26Y

Watch the whole film; it is excellent, and illustrates the other various musical approaches in a Gypsy diaspora from India/Pakistan to Spain.

Last edited by BuleriaChk; 04-02-2014 at 09:28 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2014, 09:24 AM
Garrison314 Garrison314 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuleriaChk View Post
"Gypsy Jazz" (as performed by Django Rheinhardt) is generally thought (ok, at least by me) as locally centered around the southern part of France, and is performed by "Rom" Gypsies on steel string guitars with picks...


Flamenco is indigenous to Spain; in particular southern Spain (Andalucía), and is performed on nylon string guitars with fingernails.

The music styles and techniques are very, very different (Manitas de Plata and the Gypsy Kings are from southern France, which is why their "Flamenco" is not taken seriously by anyone except foreigners and those that don't understand the art, Nevertheless, they do not perform "Gypsy Jazz"; "Pop Flamenco" would be a better term).

Gypsy Jazz and Flamenco can be compared in the film "Latchlo Drom" in the last third or so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weYhYy5u26Y

Watch the whole film; it is excellent, and illustrates the other various musical approaches in a Gypsy diaspora from India/Pakistan to Spain.
Thanks, I'll check that out. I wasn't trying to say they're the same; I just find both styles interesting. I guess I would be more of a natural flamenco player because I usually ride 'em bareback.
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  #24  
Old 04-04-2014, 08:47 PM
Garrison314 Garrison314 is offline
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So here I am with all these expensive steel stringed guitars wondering how I will find the proper nylon stringed instrument to see if I have what it takes to go down this road to Andalusia when I spot the old Fender Classic FC 10 3/4 that belonged to my wife's father who passed away when she was 13. It's only about a $100 guitar ,but holds tune just fine, and I'm not surprised at all that it would work out this way. So now I'll be off to see the voluptuous young lady who plays the flamenco with fury and passion and only works at the Guitar Center to pay the bills in hopes of fitting the guitar with the proper three nylon bottom strings.
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