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  #16  
Old 04-08-2010, 08:12 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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One more thing to throw in. Since I was familiar with the unpowered SX100's, I asked the saleman how that would differ from either of the 8's I was comparing. So for the heck of it he switches to the powered version still set flat and what a tremendous difference!!!!!!!!!!! Night and day! Big volume difference (even these are 150 watts? compared to the 1000 watts of the K8) (Sure, 1000 watts) Big bottom. Much fuller, natural sound. Makes me almost wish I had kept the SX100's with using my powered mixer. (EMX5000-12)
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2010, 07:25 PM
dcopper dcopper is offline
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I have been using 1 K8 as an extension to my SoloAmp since they hit the streets. Some of the coffee house venues don't need it for volume since the SA does the trick easily, but the K8 has such nice bottom end that it really fills out the sound. One other thing is that I tried switching it to the "bass" boost and using it as a pseudo-sub with the SoloAmp. There was no crossover to feed the K8 but it sounded really sweet. Most of the time, the SA sounds great with my setup and I don't need the K8. When the opportunity is there, I use the K8 just to round out the sound. It is so lightweight and compact that it is not any hassle (Except an added speaker stand) to throw in the car.
I have used the K8 with an iPod for my daughter's birthday party at an indoor soccer facility and it filled the whole place. Great dispersion and excellent full smooth tone.
Thanks for the comparison with the other powered boxes and the other systems. Lots of great info
davidc
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  #18  
Old 04-09-2010, 05:08 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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I have been touting the EV SX100's as the BEST sounding lightweight passive speakers I have ever heard for months now. I had bought them at a very good price online and had a very liberal return policy which I took advantage of. I used them for a benefit (along with my EMX5000-12) I was concerned with lugging such a heavy powered board (maybe I'm just getting old) and I spent too much time on "Acoustic Guitar forums" reading about these "ultra portable" systems and these new lightweight powered speakers so I sent the EV's back while I still had the time (a few days left on the 60 day return policy) to give me more time to decide what I wanted. The constant indecision has prompted me on several occassions to mention that I "maybe" should have kept those speakers.
I still haven't tried a Compct or SoloAmp and I finally listened to the K-8 and the new ZX1A. The OP claims that the sound quality of the small "line arrays" does not compare to the quality of these fine powered speakers. I claim that these fine powered speakers do not compare to the quality of the powered version of the SX100. (Not even close) These are about the most Natural, Balanced sounding speakers I have ever heard. I have JBL MPro415's that sounded midrangy compared to the SX100's when I had them side by side.

This all has me wondering how much I am willing to compromise for weight and portability issues (something that Aloha Chris has been trumpeting everytime he posts) (And NO! I am not willing to spend $3-4,000 on a system)
I am, however, reconsidering the possibility of going for the SX100's again. (I am not considering the powered version because of the extra weight weight.)
I could get by with my powered board until I get a lightweight powered amp and a small passive board. One more piece to carry but less weight.

I have no experience with powered speakers but I have also wondered what it was like running MORE cables (extention cords for power to the speakers)
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  #19  
Old 04-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
I have been touting the EV SX100's as the BEST sounding lightweight passive speakers I have ever heard for months now. I had bought them at a very good price online and had a very liberal return policy which I took advantage of. I used them for a benefit (along with my EMX5000-12) I was concerned with lugging such a heavy powered board (maybe I'm just getting old) and I spent too much time on "Acoustic Guitar forums" reading about these "ultra portable" systems and these new lightweight powered speakers so I sent the EV's back while I still had the time (a few days left on the 60 day return policy) to give me more time to decide what I wanted. The constant indecision has prompted me on several occassions to mention that I "maybe" should have kept those speakers.
I still haven't tried a Compct or SoloAmp and I finally listened to the K-8 and the new ZX1A. The OP claims that the sound quality of the small "line arrays" does not compare to the quality of these fine powered speakers. I claim that these fine powered speakers do not compare to the quality of the powered version of the SX100. (Not even close) These are about the most Natural, Balanced sounding speakers I have ever heard. I have JBL MPro415's that sounded midrangy compared to the SX100's when I had them side by side.

This all has me wondering how much I am willing to compromise for weight and portability issues (something that Aloha Chris has been trumpeting everytime he posts) (And NO! I am not willing to spend $3-4,000 on a system)
I am, however, reconsidering the possibility of going for the SX100's again. (I am not considering the powered version because of the extra weight weight.)
I could get by with my powered board until I get a lightweight powered amp and a small passive board. One more piece to carry but less weight.

I have no experience with powered speakers but I have also wondered what it was like running MORE cables (extention cords for power to the speakers)
Excellent post Bob. I couldn't possibly agree more.

BTW, running extension cords to the powered speakers has not been a big issue for me. Black extension cords can be a bit hard to find, but I make my own anyway. Amp draw/heavy cables is not really an issue either, since most of these speakers draw very low amperage.

The big advantage to powered speakers of course, is that the amps and limit-circuitry are designed specifically for that enclosure, so there's little to worry about there. The drawbacks are "added weight", and the extension cords you mentioned.

As for "how much weight is too much?" well, that boils down to each owners' capabilities. I'm 61, and hoisting my Yorkville NX55ps up on stands is not the easiest thing in the world, but I get by. Would I trade my NX55p's for a lighter speaker? Not unless I get better performance. That, trumps any weight issues I have.
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  #20  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by WildPicker View Post
... Overall volume is loud enough for small venues (think 60 person coffee house) with all three. But the quality of the sound is simply not equal to what you can get from good powered speakers. In a side by side comparison with the powered speakers described below, the sound of these mini columns is colored and/or harsh as you turn up the volume. The lowest notes of an acoustic guitar require fairly flat frequency response down to around 70 Hz, and these little column speakers just don’t have it. Note: I haven’t worked with the more expensive Bose L1 Model 11 with the powered sub. But then again by the time you’re spending $2,500 for this mono system, or $5,000 for two of them to make it stereo, it’s neither inexpensive nor light weight.
I'm surprised that the bass response of the Compact seemed weak too you for the purpose of reproducing an acoustic guitar. The Bose Compact and the QSC K8 both have 8 inch woofers so it is reasonable to expect a similar low frequency capability. QSC specifications show the K8's response as being down 6 db at 66 Hz. The Compact's response is down 3 dB at 65 Hz. The response of both speaker systems extends well below the low E of a guitar (approximately 82 Hz).
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  #21  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:38 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
I'm surprised that the bass response of the Compact seemed weak too you for the purpose of reproducing an acoustic guitar. The Bose Compact and the QSC K8 both have 8 inch woofers so it is reasonable to expect a similar low frequency capability. QSC specifications show the K8's response as being down 6 db at 66 Hz. The Compact's response is down 3 dB at 65 Hz. The response of both speaker systems extends well below the low E of a guitar (approximately 82 Hz).
Herb,

Frequency response numbers are meaningless, unless accompanied by further data, such as amplitude and distortion numbers. You have to listen to those speakers at "real world" levels, then determine if the speaker lives up to those specs.

Bob
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
Herb,

Frequency response numbers are meaningless, unless accompanied by further data, such as amplitude and distortion numbers. You have to listen to those speakers at "real world" levels, then determine if the speaker lives up to those specs.

Bob
I disagree. While they have to be taken with with the understanding that different measurement techniques can yield significantly different results and that some companies are more conservative than others, especially when it comes to distortion levels; they are useful in giving some basis for comparison. I included the frequency response figures because they support my contention that there is every reason to believe that both the GSC K8 and the Bose Compact, having the same size woofers, would be equally capable of adequately reproducing the low E of a guitar which was the issue mentioned in the opening post.

Disregard the the frequency response claims of the manufacturers if you want but you can't refute that the bass response capability of the two systems is sufficiently comparable for the purposes of reproducing the low E of a guitar.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:44 PM
dcopper dcopper is offline
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The cabinet design certainly can have an impact on how they sound, project and how much dispersion occurs. All you have to do is listen to the BOSE Compact and a K8 and you will hear a world of difference. It may be hard to argue with the specs being similar and the "Specs" should render similar results but design differences are huge.Powering the 8" driver in the K8 with a lot more wattage, different circuitry (crossovers, etc.) and a completely different cabinet design results in a huge difference in sound. I look at specs to see the frequency range and distortion levels, then go real world and listen to what it actually "sounds" like. I don't disregard the specs. I just use that as one of the tools to evaluate the system. There is no similarity in tone between the BOSE Compact and the K8. They are just different animals that live in the same spec range. I'm not saying one is "better" than the other. They are different due to their design and power output. That is my opinion coming from a practical perspective, anyway.
davidc
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:51 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcopper View Post
The cabinet design certainly can have an impact on how they sound, project and how much dispersion occurs. All you have to do is listen to the BOSE Compact and a K8 and you will hear a world of difference. It may be hard to argue with the specs being similar and the "Specs" should render similar results but design differences are huge.Powering the 8" driver in the K8 with a lot more wattage, different circuitry (crossovers, etc.) and a completely different cabinet design results in a huge difference in sound. I look at specs to see the frequency range and distortion levels, then go real world and listen to what it actually "sounds" like. I don't disregard the specs. I just use that as one of the tools to evaluate the system. There is no similarity in tone between the BOSE Compact and the K8. They are just different animals that live in the same spec range. I'm not saying one is "better" than the other. They are different due to their design and power output. That is my opinion coming from a practical perspective, anyway.
davidc
Bose provides specs? That's certainly news.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:07 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
Excellent post Bob. I couldn't possibly agree more.

As for "how much weight is too much?" well, that boils down to each owners' capabilities. I'm 61, and hoisting my Yorkville NX55ps up on stands is not the easiest thing in the world, but I get by. Would I trade my NX55p's for a lighter speaker? Not unless I get better performance. That, trumps any weight issues I have.
Good reviews on the NX55's. Sure I'm younger and can probably handle a 42 lb speaker (in comparison to my 59lb. MP415's) but 31 lbs sounds even better to me. (I was liking the sound of a 19 lb speaker to tell you the truth) (Besides I'm still recovering from shoulder surgery)
There definitely is a point where too small suffers from sound quality though IMO. (well maybe "too small" is the wrong criteria)

I need to do more research concerning the benefits of selfpowered speakers as far as the circuit protection goes.
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  #26  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by dcopper View Post
The cabinet design certainly can have an impact on how they sound, project and how much dispersion occurs. All you have to do is listen to the BOSE Compact and a K8 and you will hear a world of difference. It may be hard to argue with the specs being similar and the "Specs" should render similar results but design differences are huge.Powering the 8" driver in the K8 with a lot more wattage, different circuitry (crossovers, etc.) and a completely different cabinet design results in a huge difference in sound. I look at specs to see the frequency range and distortion levels, then go real world and listen to what it actually "sounds" like. I don't disregard the specs. I just use that as one of the tools to evaluate the system. There is no similarity in tone between the BOSE Compact and the K8. They are just different animals that live in the same spec range. I'm not saying one is "better" than the other. They are different due to their design and power output. That is my opinion coming from a practical perspective, anyway.
davidc
I have no doubt that the two systems have a sound different sonic character. The opening post stated: "The lowest notes of an acoustic guitar require fairly flat frequency response down to around 70 Hz, and these little column speakers just don’t have it."

In expressing surprise at that statement, which I did not refute, I made the point that both systems should be more than capable of reproducing the low E of a guitar, especially since they both use 8" speakers in ported bass enclosures. (The Compact's porting system is tuned for 65 Hz.) Again, the issue is adequate bass response to 82 Hz and nothing more.
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  #27  
Old 04-09-2010, 03:10 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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My Bose L1 Compact reproduces my acoustic guitars very well with plenty of resonant full-bass frequencies. There's no reason whatsoever that a player couldn't tune the guitar down to 70Hz and have a clear, full sound from the Bose L1 Compact. I also find it reproduces recorded music well too with plenty of good solid electric bass tone.

I also have a pair QSC K10 speakers. The biggest difference between the Bose L1 Compact and a single QSC K10 is that when the Bose L1 Compact is in its extended setup, if you're close to the Bose, you'll hear the upper mid-range and treble frequencies coming from the six-speaker array at the top of the column whereas you'll hear the bass and lower mid-range frequencies from the bottom power-stand/speaker enclosure with its 8" speaker. The farther back you stand from the Bose L1 Compact or any Bose L1 system, the more blended the overall sound is. The QSC K10 has both its drivers in a fairly compact frontal speaker area and thus when listening fairly close, you hear all frequencies coming from one position. The Bose L1 Compact can also be used in its non-extended setup with the six-speaker array nestled within the front of the power stand/speaker base. I've never listened to it this way but I'd surmise that now the Bose L1 Compact would act more like a single-point sonic source such as the QSC K10.

The one thing that can't be denied is that the QSC K10's design and onboard power can totally blow away the Bose L1 Compact if both are in a maximum loudness contest! The Bose L1 Compact has a 130-watt power amp and the QSC K10 has two 500-watt power amps. Thus, the QSC will deliver a cleaner sound to a higher listening level, and out to a greater distance than the Bose L1 Compact BUT the Bose L1 Compact will deliver good clean sound with better dispersion for smaller venues where folks are not far away. Both the Bose L1 Compact and QSC K10 deliver excellent amplified sound but they're really designed with two different listening environments in mind.

Regards,

SpruceTop
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  #28  
Old 04-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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There's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much creedance put to "barebones/incomplete specs" here.

How can anybody seriously state for example, that any of the K Series speakers have 1000/w .??? I sometimes get the feeling that folks just want to be suckered into believing those numbers. Ridiculous. All I see here, is "speculation", not "specifications". Who on this forum, can tell me where the limit-protection circuits are set on any of the K Series speakers?

Frequency specs,,,,,,,, at what amplitude????? How often are you going to see a spec that includes amplitude level, and accompanied by a distortion spec? With high-end gear, specs stated like Example 6 (below), are commonplace. Examples 1-5 might more accurately reflect consumer-level gear. My point is; you "CAN NOT" tell by specs alone, how one speaker will compare to another, unless it's a "complete" spec, from a trusted source.

Example 1; 45Hz- 18kHz
Example 2; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB)
Example 3; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @ 1 watt
Example 4; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @1 watt/1% harmonic distortion
Example 5; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-10dB)@ 100watt/10% harmonic distortion
Example 6; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @100dB SPL@ 10meters 1/2 space/0.5% hd

Bob
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  #29  
Old 04-09-2010, 05:42 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Bobby1note View Post
There's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much creedance put to "barebones/incomplete specs" here.

How can anybody seriously state for example, that any of the K Series speakers have 1000/w .??? I sometimes get the feeling that folks just want to be suckered into believing those numbers. Ridiculous. All I see here, is "speculation", not "specifications". Who on this forum, can tell me where the limit-protection circuits are set on any of the K Series speakers?

Frequency specs,,,,,,,, at what amplitude????? How often are you going to see a spec that includes amplitude level, and accompanied by a distortion spec? With high-end gear, specs stated like Example 6 (below), are commonplace. Examples 1-5 might more accurately reflect consumer-level gear. My point is; you "CAN NOT" tell by specs alone, how one speaker will compare to another, unless it's a "complete" spec, from a trusted source.

Example 1; 45Hz- 18kHz
Example 2; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB)
Example 3; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @ 1 watt
Example 4; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @1 watt/1% harmonic distortion
Example 5; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-10dB)@ 100watt/10% harmonic distortion
Example 6; 45Hz- 18kHz (+/-3dB) @100dB SPL@ 10meters 1/2 space/0.5% hd

Bob
Hi Bob,

I totally agree with you about company-stated speaker specs being given too much creedence in this and other speaker threads. Actually hearing potential speaker purchases is the best way for a player to judge how well the speakers sound. For example, Bose, if one is willing to dig into their website, does publish fairly comprehensive specs regarding their various speaker systems. Bose has always stressed that speaker specs aren't necessarily real-world viable. They stress component reliability and amp/speaker parameters necessary to deliver pleasing audio to a listener. For the Bose L1 Compact, for example, they state:

Power:
System Power Handling 130 W
Distortion at Rated Power 0.1% Max 30 Hz – 15 kHz
System Limiter Dynamic Limiting

Here's the link to the Bose website pages and the Technical Data Sheets for their various Bose L1 system specs in .pdf browser-viewable pages:

Bose L1 Compact:

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_dat...l1_compact.pdf

Bose L1 Model I:

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/L1/td_l1_m1.pdf

Bose L1 Model II:

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/L1/td_l1_m2.pdf

Regarding the QSC K Series speakers, all I know is my QSC K10 speakers sound really good but it would be nice to know how QSC attained its total two-power amp rating of 1000 watts!

Regards,

SpruceTop
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 04-10-2010 at 06:55 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-09-2010, 06:21 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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My guess is that
a) the rating is actually 500 watts "peak" for each amp which normally converts to about half for "Program" power and then half again for "Continuous" power. It is my belief that the old RMS designation is close to Program power so I would call it 250 watts per amp.

b) having that many watts to the horn is useless because if the system is intenally matched, the woofer would get more than twice the power than the horn gets at any given time. Most 250 watt woofers would have about 50 watts going to the horn so the extra watts in this case is just so they wouldn't have to design 2 different amps which would make production cheaper.

Of course this is just a guess and I have NOTHING to back that up so don't bother challenging me!

Funny thing about all of that is that the EV SxA100 has 150 watts to the woofer and 50 watts to the horn RMS and that speaker CLEARLY blew away the K8 in volume alone (never mind balance and bottom end) I "believe" all the speakers were centered on the speaker attenuator.

http://www.electro-voice.com/product.php?id=209
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